Let $f: E \to \mathbb{R}$, $E\subset \mathbb{R}$ be a function. Then $f$ is differentiable at a point $x_0 \in E$ iff $\lim_{E \ni x \to x_0} \frac{f(x) - f(x_0)}{x-x_0}$ exists. We can consider function $f':E' \to \mathbb{R}$ where $E'$ consists of points where $f$ is differentiable. Then $f'$ also could be differentiable at $x_0$. For this we only need the existence of $\lim_{E' \ni x \to x_0} \frac{f'(x) - f'(x_0)}{x-x_0}$. For this we do not need $E'$ to contain some whole neighbourhood $U_E(x_0)$ of $x_0$ in set $E$, right? But for some reason I see in a lot of sources the contrary statement. For example according to those sources for $f$ to be $2$ times differentiable at $x_0$ it should be differentiable in some whole neighbourhood $U_E(x_0)$. I do not understand this requirement. For me it looks like additional requirement out of air. Could you please give me some good reason for this? Or do I miss something and my question does not make sense in general?
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1It would be nice if you were more specific about "those sources." But it is most easy to define if $f'$ is defined in a neighborhood, so they probably add that. Certainly, you can't have $x_0$ discrete in $E'$ for the limit for $f''(x_0)$$ to be defined. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 17:29
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But, if there isn't a logical reason, I'd guess the reason iis simplicity and the fact that this covers all the important cases that come up in actual use. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 17:31
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Typically we would want the property of being $n$ times differentiable to be a property of the original function. Functions have domains. When you pass to $E’$ you change the domain. So in your set up each derivative may have a different, smaller domain. It’s just… less nice. It’s nothing deep it’s just that you way probably does a poorer job of capturing what one is trying to say. – SBK Jun 19 '25 at 17:33
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@ThomasAndrews as examples a) Rudin, Principles of mathematical analysis, p. 110, def. 5.14. b) Zorich, Mathematical Analysis I (though there is no explicit def. of n times differentiability at a point, I think it is those with whole neighbourhood based on proof of lemma 2, p. 224). Also tried to consult with LLMs; they also tend to give def. with whole neighbourhood but they can't give normal explanation why. Well, if it is just because it is convenient then OK, but this triggered me because this contradicts to recursive def. of higher derivatives via lower ones. – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 18:21
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2Don't use LLMs for math. They are as likely to be wrong as right, especially about the whys. There might be a time where LLMs are good enough, but they are far from good for it now, and it is really not an architecture well-designed for reasoning. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 18:27
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@ThomasAndrews by saying "you can't have $x_0$ discrete in $E'$" you mean that $x_0$ should be limit point of $E'$? if yes, then sure, but I do not need the whole neighbourhood in $E$ as well; regarding LLMs, yes, they are likely to be erroneous (after all it is based on probabilities) but sometimes they can be useful giving right direction – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 18:39
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2But how do,you know when they are useful, when they state with confidence the answer when they are right or wrong? Still better to google and read a real piece of text from a reliable page. Wikipedia is, of course, sometimes wrong, but a lot of eyes go into checking those. LLMs are relatively terrible. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 18:43
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@ThomasAndrews I think we should not discuss LLMs here, but I will just answer: if I achieve my goal and LLMs gave me some idea that helped me then I consider them useful. They can be very bad at details but they can just give some idea which you can investigate in details without LLMs, using books, papers, etc. – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 18:47
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3Well, I will just rexommend that, here, LLMs are greeted with a lot of hostility (far more than mine,) so you should never reference them. We've been inundated here with questions asking us to explain something ChatGPT told them, and it is always a waste of time - it is like responding to a drunk crazy uncle's questions about quantum physics, in which he states things which are not remotely true with a supreme confidence. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 18:58
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@ThomasAndrews well, now I understand your question about sources :D But this question is not about LLMs nonsense, it actually arose from trying to understand a proof from a book. – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 19:02
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No, I've asked about source long before LLMs. A lot of questions here ask about what their book is telling them without mentioning the book. And some of the sources are more or less reliable. If a book is an intro book, it also might be that they choose a less general definition because it is easier to handle. – Thomas Andrews Jun 19 '25 at 19:06
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As others have said (or at least suggested), these issues are often author-dependent. However, if you're really gung-ho about various nuances involved in domain issues for higher derivatives, then possibly you'll want to see how it is dealt in Higher Order Derivatives by Mukhopadhyay (2012). However, this book is rather advanced AND quite technical, as it deals with many types of differentiation beyond the "ordinary derivative" (such as many of those mentioned in this Mathematics SE answer). – Dave L. Renfro Jun 19 '25 at 19:10
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@ThomasAndrews I thought that you suspected me hiding ChatGPT by words "those sources". As far as I know these books are not advanced but they are not elementary as well I think. But I checked also Terence Tao's book, it looks like he does not define higher order differentiability at a single point at all, he only defines it on the whole domain of function. – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 19:12
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@DaveL.Renfro thank you, I will check – user341 Jun 19 '25 at 19:12
2 Answers
It depends on the definition of a differentiable function $f :E \to \mathbb R$. There are various approaches differing in assumptions on the domain $E$ of $f$ (see my answer to Is open set and interiority a necessary condition for differentiability?).
Most authors require the domain to be an open subset of $\mathbb R$, and then it is necessary to assume that $f'$ exists in an open neigborhood of $x_0$ if you want to have a chance that $f'$ is differentiable at $x_0$.
The most general approach is Tao's. He allows arbitrary $E \subset \mathbb R$ and defines differentiability of $f$ in each limit point $x_0$ of $E$.
Using this approach, we can consider the set $L^0(E)$ of limit points of $E$ and get a subset $D^1(E) \subset L^0(E)$ on which $f'(x)$ exists. Next we can consider the set $L^1(E) \subset D^1(E)$ of limit points of $D^1(E)$ and get a subset $D^2(E) \subset L^1(E)$ on which $f''(x)$ exists. We can iterate this process - but imo the resulting chain of subsets of $E$ is fairly unpleasant.
In order that $f^{(n)}(x_0)$ exists, we must require that $x_0$ is contained in all these sets, and this does not seem to be very transparent. It is much easier to require that there exists an open subset $U \subset \mathbb R$ with $x_0 \in U \subset E$ such that $f$ is $(n-1)$-times differentiable on $U$ and $f^{(n)}(x_0)$ exists.
Update.
With Tao's approach we can do it a bit more general by requiring the existence of an open subset $U \subset \mathbb R$ such that
$x_0 \in U \cap E$
All points of $U \cap E$ are limit points of $E$ (or equivalently, limit points of $U \cap E$)
$f$ is is $(n-1)$-times differentiable on $U \cap E$ and $f^{(n)}(x_0)$ exists.
This covers for example functions defined on closed or half-open intervals. The traditional approach is to work with left / right derivatives in the boundary points. With Tao's definition there is no need to use separate concepts for left and right derivatives.
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thank you for the answer, Paul. This is exactly what I concluded from left comments. So the reason for this artificial limitation of the meaning of words "$f$ is $n$-times differentiable at point $x_0$" is desire for transparency and convenience. – user341 Jun 21 '25 at 10:25
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yes, this is exactly the definition that I accepted for myself. In other words with a bit of notation: $f:E\to \mathbb{R}$ is $n$-times differentiable at $x_0$ iff there exists $U_{E}(x_{0})$ such that $f|{U{E}(x_{0})}$ is $(n-1)$-times differentiable and $(f|{U{E}(x_{0})})^{(n-1)}$ is differentiable at $x_0$ (in Tao's sense). – user341 Jun 21 '25 at 11:02
We say that a function $f\colon \Omega \rightarrow \mathbb{R}$ defined on an arbitrary subset $\Omega \subset \mathbb{R}$ has a Whitney jet of order $n$ at a point $x_0 \in \Omega$, where $x_0$ is an accumulation point of $\Omega$, if there exist constants $A_1, \dots, A_n \in \mathbb{R}$ such that $$ f(x) = f(x_0) + A_1(x - x_0) + A_2(x - x_0)^2 + \dots + A_n(x - x_0)^n + r_n(x), $$ where $$ \lim_{\substack{x \to x_0 \\ x \in \Omega}} \frac{r_n(x)}{(x - x_0)^n} = 0. \tag{*} $$
We require that $x_0 \in \Omega$ be an accumulation point because the limit in $(*)$ must be taken over points of $\Omega$.
Note that if $\Omega$ is open, and $f$ is $n$-times differentiable in the classical sense, we have $$ A_k = \frac{f^{(k)}(x_0)}{k!}. \tag{**} $$
For an arbitrary set $\Omega$, for every accumulation point $x_0 \in \Omega$, the coefficients $A_k$ (if they exist) are uniquely determined, so one can define $f^{(k)}(x_0)$ via the identity $(**)$.
The polynomial $$ f(x_0) + A_1(x - x_0) + A_2(x - x_0)^2 + \dots + A_n(x - x_0)^n $$ is called a Whitney jet of $f$ of order $n$ at the point $x_0$.
To be fair, I did not found literature focused specifically on $n$-differentiable functions defined on arbitrary subsets of $\mathbb{R}$. However, there is an extensive and influential body of work concerning $C^n$-differentiable functions defined on closed subsets.
A particularly interesting question is the following: suppose $\Omega \subset \mathbb{R}$ is closed (for instance, a Cantor set), and suppose $f$ have Whitney jets of order $n$ at every point of $\Omega$, with all derivatives $f^{(k)}$ (for $k \leq n$) continuous on $\Omega$. Can $f$ be extended to a $C^n$ function on the whole real line $\mathbb{R}$, that is, a function that is $n$-times differentiable and such that $f^{(k)}$ is continuous for every $k\leq n$?
Such questions are quite subtle. They were studied in depth by Hassler Whitney, both for subsets of $\mathbb{R}$ and more generally for subsets of $\mathbb{R}^j$. The answer is positive if we assume additional compatibility conditions on the Whitney jets. See the references below for more details.
References
Hassler Whitney. Differentiable Functions Defined in Arbitrary Subsets of Euclidean Space Transactions of the American Mathematical Society, Vol. 40, No. 2 (Sep., 1936), pp. 309-317. https://doi.org/10.2307/1989869
Hassler Whitney. Differentiable Functions Defined in Closed Sets. I Transactions of the American Mathematical Society, Vol. 36, No. 2, 1934, 369-387. https://doi.org/10.2307/1989844
Hassler Whitney. Analytic Extensions of Differentiable Functions Defined in Closed Sets Transactions of the American Mathematical Society, Vol. 36, No. 1, 1934, pp. 63-89 (27 pages) https://doi.org/10.2307/1989708
Fefferman, Charles. A sharp form of Whitney’s extension theorem. Annals of Mathematics, 161(1), 509–577, 2005. https://doi.org/10.4007/annals.2005.161.509
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thank you for the answer, Daniel. It is interesting generaliztion of derivatives. I also saw it in a book that recommended Dave L. Renfro in comments. But this def. is too general and definitely is not the one that is used in those books that I use to study. – user341 Jun 21 '25 at 10:19