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Remark : The current votes are $+15/-15$ .


I have a possible interesting question about the Collatz Conjecture, that I think it is "answerable".

Let me state my question as follows.

We are only interested in odd natural numbers under the Collatz function/process and if the natural number goes to $1$ under the Collatz process $C(n)$, then we will consider these numbers as "Collatz numbers" in general.


Consider a function that generates the following odd "Collatz numbers" :

$$f(n)=\frac {4^n-1}{3}$$

This function generates all $1-$ odd step odd Collatz numbers.

Here, the odd step exactly means under the Collatz function $C(n)$, we consider the number of "jumping" from one odd number to the next odd number in the iterated Collatz sequence. Similarly, the even step means under the Collatz function we count the number of "jumping" from even number to the next even number in the iterated Collatz sequence.

Then consider the following function :

$$f(n)=\frac{2^{8n-3}-2^{2n-1}-3}{9}$$

Note that, the above explicit function does not generate all $2-$ odd step odd collatz numbers, but only produces possible infinitely many subset of $2-$ odd step odd collatz numbers, under the iterated collatz function/process.

My question :

In terms of $m$ and $n$, does there exist an effective explicit algebraic closed-form formula, which does not use recurrence relation “like above”, such that the explicit algebraic formula $f_m(n)$ yields exactly $\color{red}{\text{m - odd step}}$ odd Collatz numbers ? Here, the existence of the formula $f_m(n)$ does not imply $f_m(n)$ covers all of the odd Collatz numbers.

Note that, the above formulas does not depend on the variable $m$. In above formulas $m=1$ or $m=2$ are fixed numbers, which are the specific cases.

Concretely, we are looking for a possible $2-$ variable function or formula, which depends on the variables $m$ and $n$ and generates infinitely many $m-$ odd step odd Collatz numbers under the iterated Collatz function. Obviously, we know that the single function $f_m(n)$ can never cover all of the $m-$ odd step odd collatz numbers.

So, the question is very short : Does there exist any possibility to derive such a formula $f_m(n)$ or just $f(n)$ ?

Note that, the question does not necessarily imply $m\neq n$. The construction of $f(n)$ , which exactly produces $n-$ odd step odd collatz numbers, under the iterated collatz function does perfectly answer the original question. For instance, $f(5)$ generates infinitely many $5$ odd step odd collatz numbers, $f(100)$ generates infinitely many $100$ odd step odd collatz numbers, $f(27)$ generates infinitely many $27-$ odd step odd Collatz numbers.

What I am looking for, the closed-form formula $f_m(n)$ includes only algebraic operations, e.g. $+,-,÷,\times, a^b, \sqrt {\cdot}$ and involve only elementary algebraic functions e.g. $\lfloor x \rfloor,\,\lceil x \rceil$ or possible modular restrictions which purely interchangeable with floor/ceiling functions.


Definitions :

What are the $\color{red}{\text{m - even step}}$ collatz numbers ?

For instance, take $f(n)=2^n$ generates exactly $m=n$ even step collatz numbers.

What are the $\color{red}{\text{m - odd step}}$ collatz numbers ?

The algebraic function $f_m(n)$ produces exactly $m-$ odd steps odd collatz numbers in terms of $m$ and $n$, which is equivalent to my original question.

Comment :

We are not looking for an explicit algebraic formula that covers all odd step Collatz numbers. My question is only about my curiosity. Like me, everyone can also observe that, the above question has nothing to do with to prove the conjecture.

I have just convinced myself that looking for a formula $n-$ odd step function $f(n)$, similar to $n-$ even step function $f(n)=2^n$ would be pretty interesting and unexpected.

nonuser
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    Re-stating: For each natural $m$, you seek $f_m:\mathbb{N}\to Odd_m$, where $Odd_m$ is the set of odd naturals whose path to $1$ via the Collatz process uses exactly $m$ "odd steps". (Equivalently, with $C$ the Collatz function, the sequence ${f_m(n),C(f_m(n)),C(C(f_m(n)),\ldots,1}$ contains exactly $m+1$ odd integers (counting $f_m(n)$ and $1$). The image must be infinite, but not necessarily all of $Odd_m$. (Such a function is likely not unique.) You found $f_1(n)=\frac13\left(4^n-1\right)$ (which happens to map to all of $Odd_1$) and $f_2(n) = \frac19(2^{8n-3}-2^{2n-1}-3)$. ... Correct? – Blue Mar 31 '25 at 10:43
  • @Blue Your interpretation is almost correct. Yes, this function can never be "unique" and yes in my "examples" the output of $f(n)$ is constant. But, the original question asks the output of $f(n)$ produces $n-$ odd step collatz numbers, like the trivial function $2^n$ produces $n-$ even step collatz numbers. Concretely, we do want make the output of $f(n)$ is "constant". Please, show me if there exist some unclear points in my question. I will edit my question to bring it's best form, as far as I can. – nonuser Mar 31 '25 at 10:54
  • @Blue Correction to Re-1: We do not want to make the output is "constant" for $f(n)$ . Re-2 : By your definitions, yes it is enough to find at least one possible bivariate function/formula $f_m(n)=\dots $, which depends on variables $m$ and $n$. Because, we can take $m=n$ at the end. However, I wanted to avoid this "more" general form, so I expressed the function based on the case $m=n$. I think, you understand my intention correctly. – nonuser Mar 31 '25 at 11:12
  • @nonuser: I seem not to have expressed myself clearly. Since the use of $n$ in both the descriptor "$n$-odd step number" and as the parameter in $f(n)$ can be a little confusing, I introduced $m$ to take on the former role: $f_1$ indicates a function yielding "1-odd step" Collatz numbers, $f_2$ for "2-odd step" numbers, etc. Taking $m=n$ isn't really something we'd do. But no matter. I'll stop muddying the water. ... Good luck! :) – Blue Mar 31 '25 at 14:05
  • @Blue Many thank you. Hmm, do you mean we need to find at least one possible function $f_m(n)$ , which involves $2$ variables ? But, the one variable function is simpler. Therefore, I wanted to find $f(n)$ which yields exactly $n-$ odd step . For example $f(5)$ yields $5$ odd step , but not $2$ steps. It is similar to $2^n$ even step formula. But, my above formulas' output is always constant, which is not the case here. – nonuser Mar 31 '25 at 14:38
  • I tried to understand what you're doing and reformulated your function as $f(n)=\frac{2^{2n-1}\frac{4^{3n-1}-1}3-1}{3}$ - this made it more transparent for me what you are doing... – Gottfried Helms Apr 01 '25 at 07:19
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    Hmm. From the discussion of iterated functions (my some experiences with) we often write $ f°^n(x) = \underset{n-times}{\underbrace{{f(f(f(...f(x))}}}$ . In the body of $f(x)$ itself the $n$ does not appear. However If we introduce the idea of Schroeder-functions, then, for instance for $f(h,x) = \exp°^h(x)-1$ we get a notation of a powerseries where the $h$ does actually appear in the coefficients of the series, making the coefficients of the powerserie being polynomials with coefficients depending on $h$. Hmmm. But I don't see at the moment how this could be transferred to your question. – Gottfried Helms Apr 01 '25 at 10:06
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  • @BillDubuque I think I have $+15/-15$ up/downvotes. I've never seen anything like this before. First the question was closed as if it would harm the site. Now the downvotes are coming without any technical or mathematical reason. Do I need to leave the site? – nonuser Apr 05 '25 at 19:20
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    Lulu explained in a comment on your meta question why posts attempting to solve (parts of) famous open problems are usually not well received (it is not rare and it has nothing to do with sockpuppets). But it is rare that downvotes are explained (search meta for reasons why). $\ \ $ – Bill Dubuque Apr 05 '25 at 19:28
  • @BillDubuque I understand, but the question is not about the solution of the Conjecture, but about a question that is curious. How constructive can it be to vote the question with a philosophical attitude but not mathematical ? I was just asking about something related to my interest in math. The question here is not about the solution/proof. This is not a research question either. I mean rare not about downvotes, I mean rare just about $+15/-15$ votes. BTW, it is impossible to prove that the sock puppets did not appear in the voting. I also mentioned this is the first assumption. – nonuser Apr 05 '25 at 19:43
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    My comment on rarity does in fact pertain to your remark in your question speculating about votes on questions like this. The voting you see here is quite common on such questions. But this is not the correct place to (further) discuss meta topics. Anyone seriously interest in Collatz should start by reading the survey by Lagarias in order to be properly informed on basics and prior work. – Bill Dubuque Apr 05 '25 at 21:29
  • @BillDubuque The first votes came in the first seconds. People who are upset with Collatz may downvoted the question with sockpuppets.The reason for this is that $+15/-15$ seems like someone doesn't want the question to remain at $+1$. I can't prove it, and neither can you. My question has nothing to do with Lagarias's work. That's the problem. Voting without reading the question is already a psychological problem. Not a mathematical one. (There were previously voted comments that were deleted by moderators). Here is the question: If no questions are asked about Collatz, why is there a tag ? – nonuser Apr 06 '25 at 05:57

2 Answers2

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One way to do it would be to use well known Collatz pattern, from which we know the exact number $m$ of odd steps, and take advantage of the modular arithmetic cyclic nature.

For the well known patterns, you have the classical one which says that every odd number $a2^m-1$ reaches $a3^m-1$ in exactly $m$ odd steps. Another one is that every number of the form $a4^m+1$ reaches $a3^m+1$ in exactly $m$ odd steps (we will assume $a$ to be odd in both cases). More here.

Now $a3^m-1$ being even, you can divide it by $2^b$ to reach the next odd number $c=\frac{a3^m-1}{2^b}$, the goal being that $c=1$ to keep the odd counter to $m$.

Using the modular operator, we find the smallest $a=\frac{1}{3^m}\bmod(2^b)$, where the use of modular inverse is permitted by $\gcd(2^x,3^y)=1$

Using the cyclic nature of this modular form we may find that $b=3^{m-1}$ (some discussions about it here and here).

From here you can find $f(m)=a2^m-1=2^m(\frac{1}{3^m}\bmod(2^{3^{m-1}}))-1$ and since any number of the form $4^n\cdot d+\frac{4^n-1}{3}$ has the same number of odd steps as $d$, you can also write $$f_m(n)=4^n(2^m(\frac{1}{3^m}\bmod(2^{3^{m-1}}))-1)+\frac{4^n-1}{3}$$ $$\begin{array}{|c|}\hline f_m(n)=4^n(2^m(\frac{2^{3^{m-1}}+1}{3^m})-1)+\frac{4^n-1}{3}\\\hline\end{array}$$

You could do the same for the case $a4^m+1$ (and any of the other patterns) where you find $$f_m(n)=4^n(4^m(-\frac{1}{3^m}\bmod(4^{3^{m-1}}))+1)+\frac{4^n-1}{3}$$ $$\begin{array}{|c|}\hline f_m(n)=4^n(4^m(\frac{4^{3^{m-1}}-1}{3^m})+1)+\frac{4^n-1}{3}\\\hline\end{array}$$

Some Pari/GP code

f(m,n)=4^n*(2^m*((1/3^m)%2^(3^(m-1)))-1)+(4^n-1)/3
f(m,n)=4^n*(2^m*(2^(3^(m-1))+1)/3^m-1)+(4^n-1)/3

and

f(m,n)=4^n*(4^m*((-1/3^m)%4^(3^(m-1)))+1)+(4^n-1)/3
f(m,n)=4^n*(4^m*(4^(3^(m-1))-1)/3^m+1)+(4^n-1)/3
Collag3n
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  • How do you calculate $-\frac {1}{3^m}\mod 4^{3^{m-1}}$ ? Is it modular arithmetic ? – nonuser Apr 06 '25 at 11:57
  • When the modulus and denominator have no common factor, you can use modular inverse. In Pari/GP you can simply calculate it using (-1/3^m)%4^(3^(m-1)), but I guess this is feasible in any other math tool. – Collag3n Apr 06 '25 at 12:18
  • Can we use floor or ceiling function instead of this ? – nonuser Apr 06 '25 at 12:32
  • @nonuser, if the modulo is an issue, and since we know $b$ and $c$, we can replace the modulo by something more "workable". I updated the response – Collag3n Apr 06 '25 at 13:28
  • Your formula indeed works. – nonuser Apr 06 '25 at 13:58
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Your description of the question is very confusing, but it appears that you mean

  • For each odd $n, C(n)$ is the next odd integer resulting from applying the Collatz procedure. I.e. $C(n) = \frac{3n+1}{2^k}$ where $2^k$ is the highest power of $2$ which divides $3n+1$.

And your goal is for each $m$ to generate odd numbers $n$ for which $C^m(n) = 1$, and for all $k < m, C^k(n) \ne 1$ (where $C^m(n)$ is the result of applying the $C$ function $m$ times to a starting value of $n$).

It is not that difficult to generate all such numbers, but much harder to do so by means of a single-variable function $f(k)$ like you want. Let $A_m$ be the set of all odd numbers $n$ with $C^m(n) = 1$ and $n \notin A_k$ for any $k < m$, with $A_0 = \{1\}$ for completeness. Note that if $m > 0$, then $n \in A_m$ if and only if $C(n) \in A_{m-1}$. So there is some $y \in A_{m-1}$ and some $k > 0$ such that $n = \frac{2^ky - 1}3$. This requires that $3$ divides $2^ky - 1$, which occurs when $y \equiv 1\bmod 3$ and $k$ is even, or $y \equiv 2\bmod 3$ and $k$ is odd.

So, $$\begin{align}A_m = &\left\{\frac{4^{k+1}y-1}3\ \middle|\ y\in A_{m-1}; y \equiv 1\bmod 3; k \in \Bbb N\right\}\\ &\cup \left\{\frac{4^k2y-1}3\ \middle|\ y\in A_{m-1}; y \equiv 2\bmod 3; k \in \Bbb N\right\}\end{align}$$

This allows you to inductively build the sets $A_m$ starting from $A_0 = \{1\}$. But note that each $n \in A_m$ is determined by $m$ different parameters $k$: The $m$th one in the set formula for $A_m$ above, and the $m-1$ parameters that determined $C(n) \in A_{m-1}$.

To get a one-parameter function $f$ that generates elements of $A_m$ (but not all of them), we can just pick a distinguished element $y_{m-1}\in A_{m-1}$ and use one of the two formulas in the set definition. In particular, for each $m$ we can choose $y_m$ to be the smallest element of $A_m$ which is congruent to $1$ modulo $3$. Then, since $y_m \equiv 1\bmod 3$ for all $m$, we can define $$f_m(k) = \frac{4^ky_{m-1} - 1}3;\quad k\ge 1$$ as our generative functions.

Paul Sinclair
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  • Thank you. We need to introduce a direct possible closed form, because inductive formulas always can be derived. – nonuser Apr 04 '25 at 18:56
  • You don't have to choose the smallest such $y_m$. It could be any element of $A_m$ which is congruent to $1$ modulo $3$. However, I tried to come up with a formula always giving such a $y_m$, but ensuring that the $1\bmod 3$ condition held for all values just wasn't feasible. More power to you if you can find such a formula. I do not at all agree with you that any inductive definition can lead to a formula. – Paul Sinclair Apr 04 '25 at 19:27