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When $G$ is a finite group and $H$ is a proper subgroup, it is well-known that the union of all the conjugate subgroups $\bigcup_{g\in G} gHg^{-1}$ is never equal to $G$. (The same is true when finiteness of $G$ is weakened to the index $[G:H]$ being finite.) When $H \lhd G$, this union is equal to $H$ and thus is a subgroup. Can this union be a subgroup of $G$ when $H \not\lhd G$?

Equivalently, since the normal closure of $H$ in $G$ is the subgroup of $G$ generated by $\bigcup_{g\in G} gHg^{-1}$, can the normal closure of $H$ in $G$ ever just be that union when $H\not\lhd G$?

I have been unable to find any examples of this or find the issue discussed anywhere. Its relation to the normal closure of $H$ reminds me of the "reverse" question whether the commutator subgroup is ever larger than the set of all commutators, except I have seen that commutator subgroup question discussed in group theory books and examples are easily found online (with the smallest one having order $96$).

KCd
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  • The theorem about the union not being the whole group has nice discussions at https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/121526/union-of-the-conjugates-of-a-proper-subgroup (nothing that answers the current question, I think). – Gerry Myerson Jan 04 '25 at 19:30
  • More of the same at https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1508811/showing-that-the-conjugates-of-a-proper-subgroup-do-not-cover-the-group and https://mathoverflow.net/questions/173573/union-of-conjugates-of-a-subgroup – Gerry Myerson Jan 04 '25 at 19:49
  • What about an order $2$ subgroup of $A_4$? – Steve D Jan 04 '25 at 19:54
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    Let $N$ be an elementary abelian $p$-group considered as an $\mathbb F_p$-space, say of dimension $d$. Let $H$ be a 1-dimensional subspace of $N$. The semidirect product $G=Aut(N)\rtimes N$ provides the example you want. – Keith Kearnes Jan 04 '25 at 19:55
  • @KeithKearnes thanks. I'd write the semidirect product as $N \rtimes {\rm Aut}(N)$ since the $\lhd$ within the $\rtimes$ should "point" to the normal subgroup $N$. Also, you need $d > 2$ since when $d = 1$ the subgroup $H$ is normal. – KCd Jan 04 '25 at 20:16
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    @KCd: I agree with you. – Keith Kearnes Jan 04 '25 at 20:17
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    @KeithKearnes I posted your comment as an answer below. – KCd Jan 04 '25 at 20:36
  • @SteveD every index $2$ subgroup is normal, and I'm asking about non-normal subgroups because the union is automatically $H$ when $H$ is a normal subgroup. – KCd Jan 30 '25 at 07:16
  • @KCd: order $2$, not index $2$ (which doesn't exist in $A_4$). – Steve D Jan 30 '25 at 13:58
  • Note that my example is just the simplest case of what Keith Kearnes suggested. – Steve D Jan 30 '25 at 14:00
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    @SteveD ah, okay. I have added your example to the end of my answer as a special case of a generalization of the theorem in my answer. – KCd Jan 31 '25 at 02:48

1 Answers1

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A family of examples is given by Keith Kearnes in a comment, which I will put here as an answer.

Let $V$ be a finite-dimensional $\mathbf F_p$-vector space with dimension $d \geq 1$. Set $G = V \rtimes {\rm Aut}(V)$, with group law $$ (v,A)(w,B) = (v + A(w),AB) $$ and $(v,A)^{-1} = (-A^{-1}(v),A^{-1})$.

Theorem. With notation as above, let $L$ be a $1$-dimensional subspace of $V$, $I$ be the identity in ${\rm Aut}(V)$, and $H = (L,I)$. Then $H$ is a subgroup of $G$ and $$ \bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} = (V,I) = \{(v,I) : v \in V\}, $$ which is a subgroup of $G$ and is strictly larger than $H$ when $d > 1$.

Proof. Let $v_0$ be a nonzero vector in $L$, so $L = \mathbf F_pv_0$ and $H = \langle (v_0,I)\rangle$. For $g = (v,A) \in G$, $$ g(v_0,I)g^{-1} = (A(v_0),I), $$ where the $v$ in $g$ has no effect in the end. Thus $gHg^{-1} = g\langle(v_0,I)\rangle{g}^{-1} = \langle (A(v_0),I)\rangle \subset (V,I)$. Since ${\rm Aut}(V) = {\rm GL}(V)$, $\bigcup_{g \in G} g(v_0,I)g^{-1} = \left(\bigcup_{A \in {\rm GL}(V)} A(v_0),I\right) = (V - \{0\}, I)$ and $(0,I)$ is the identity in $H$, so $$ \bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} = (V,I), $$ which is a subgroup of $G$. It is strictly larger than $H$ unless $L = V$, which means $V$ is $1$-dimensional. So as long as $V$ has dimension greater than $1$, $\bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} \not= H$. QED

In the proof, we relied on the property that ${\rm Aut}(V)$ acts transitively on $V - \{0\}$. Every nontrivial finite group whose automorphisms act transitively on the non-identity elements in it is a finite-dimensional vector space over $\mathbf F_p$ for some prime $p$: see Theorem $3.15$ here.

We can view the abstract semi-direct product $V \rtimes {\rm Aut}(V)$ more concretely as the set of affine-linear maps $V \to V$ under composition, where $(v,A)$ in the semi-direct product corresponds to the affine-linear map $\mathbf x \mapsto A\mathbf x + v$ on $V$. The smallest example of such $V$ is $\mathbf F_2^2$, for which $V \rtimes {\rm Aut}(V)$ has size $4 \cdot 6 = 24$. Each affine-linear map $\mathbf F_2^2 \to \mathbf F_2^2$ is a permutation of $\mathbf F_2^2$, a set of size $4$, so the affine-linear maps being a group of order $24$ implies this group is isomorphic to $S_4$. Thus $S_4$ is an example of the kind of group $G$ being sought, with $\mathbf F_2^2$ embedded in $S_4$ as the translations $\{\mathbf x \mapsto \mathbf x + v : v \in \mathbf F_2^2\}$ on $\mathbf F_2^2$, where the nonzero translations are the three permutations in $S_4$ of type $(2,2)$. That leads to the following concrete example of $G$ and $H$.

Example. Let $G = S_4$ and $H = \langle (12)(34)\rangle$, which has order $2$. Then $$ \bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} = \{(1),(12)(34),(13)(24),(14)(23)\} $$ is the normal subgroup of $S_4$ with order $4$.

When $V$ has dimension greater than $1$ and $B$ is a subgroup of ${\rm Aut}(V)$ that acts transitively on $V - \{0\}$, the proof of the theorem above works for the group $G = V \rtimes B$: its subgroup $H = (L,I)$ has the property that $\bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} = (V,I)$, which is a subgroup of $G$ strictly larger than $H$.

Example. Taking $V = {\mathbf F}_2^2$ again, the group ${\rm Aut}(V) \cong {\rm GL}_2(\mathbf F_2) \cong S_3$ has a subgroup $B$ of order $3$ that acts transitively on the nonzero elements of $V$: $B = \{(\begin{smallmatrix}1&0\\0&1\end{smallmatrix}), (\begin{smallmatrix}1&1\\1&0\end{smallmatrix}), (\begin{smallmatrix}0&1\\1&1\end{smallmatrix})\}$. Therefore in $V \rtimes B$ there is a subgroup $H$ of order $2$ such that $\bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1} = (V,I)$, which is a subgroup of $G$ larger than $H$. The group $G$ is isomorphic to $A_4$, with $H$ corresponding to a subgroup of $A_4$ generated by a permutation of type $(2,2)$ and $\bigcup_{g \in G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponding to the unique subgroup of $A_4$ with order $4$.

KCd
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