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My native language is Chinese, so I use a translation machine.

I don't know how to rigorously prove the equivalence of the following two propositions:

(1)$\textbf{Axiom of choice}$:$Let\,P(X)’=P(X)/ \{ \emptyset \}$.$\forall X,\exists f:P(X)’\rightarrow X,\forall S\in P(X)’,f(S)\in S.$

(2)$\textbf{Proposition}$:$\{ S_{i} \}_{i\in I}$ is a family of sets, where $\forall i\in I,S_{i}\neq\emptyset$ and $\forall i,j\in I,i\neq j\iff S_{i}\cap S_{j}=\emptyset$,then $\exists C,C\cap S_{i}\neq\emptyset$ and $card(C\cap S_{i})=1$.

I have proved $(1)\Longrightarrow (2)$. However, I don’t know if the proof of $(2)\Longrightarrow (1)$ is suspected of being a circular argument. Its proof is as follows: Given $X\neq\emptyset$,$\forall B\in P(X)’$, let $S_{B}=\{ B \} \times B=\{(B,b)|B\in\{ B \},b\in B \}$, we get the set family $\{ S_{B} \}_{B\in P(X)’}$,then $\forall B\in P(X)’,S_{B}\neq\emptyset$ and $\forall i,j\in P(X)’,i\neq j\iff S_{i}\cap S_{j}=\emptyset….$

$\forall B\in P(X)’,\exists b ,b\in B$” is used in the proof. Does this imply the use of the axiom of choice?

Dr. Naïm Favier told me that $b\in B$ here does not actually make any selection, it is derived based on $B\neq\emptyset$.

Dr. Naïm Favier said: “ You can get some $b\in B$ from $B\neq\emptyset$ using excluded middle, but that $b$ is not unique, so there's no choice being made here. The fact that something exists does not give you a specified witness of that thing.” In logical terms, this means that element $b$ is an individual variable.

And I read the following: Do We Need the Axiom of Choice for Finite Sets?

Professor Carl Mummert uses "existential instantiation" to explain this problem. When we have a non-empty set, through existential instantiation, I can get $b\in B$, where $b$ is an individual variable, so no selection is actually made.

And I have a question, for “$…\forall S\in P(X)’,f(S)\in S$” in the axiom of choice, is $f(S)$ an individual variable or an individual constant?

(1)If $f(S)$ is an individual variable, does $\forall B\in P(X)’,\exists b,b\in B$ already assume the axiom of choice, leading to a circular argument?

(2) If $f(S)$ is an individual constant, then according to Professor Carl Mummert, given a finite number of non-empty sets $S$, $s\in S$ obtained through existential instantiation does not represent a real choice. This is the view of classical logic on the symbol "$\exists$” non-constructive results. In other words, given a finite number of non-empty sets, we don't have to make an actual choice. But why do we use the axiom of choice "$…f(S)\in S$" to actually select a certain value $f(S)$ from $S$ when given infinitely many non-empty sets?

In addition, I read Professor Terence Tao analysis textbook, and there is a theorem in Chapter 3, that is, given a finite number of non-empty sets, we may select an element from the non-empty set. However, judging from the context, we can know that the element selected in the proof of the theorem is actually an individual variable, rather than a certain value (individual constant).

I hope you can understand my question, thank you.

  • Clarification (a): My question is not, “in the entire proof of $(2)\Longrightarrow (1)$, is $b$ a variable or a constant?” I know that $b$ in the set $S_{B}$ is a variable at the beginning, and then we can use $\textbf{Proposition}(2)$ to get that $b$ is a specific value.

  • Clarification (b): My question is: Taking “ Clarification (a)” position, why do we need the axiom of choice to ensure that one element can be specifically selected from each non-empty set when there are infinitely many non-empty sets? Because according to Professor Carl Mummert, when the number of non-empty sets is finite, we do not need to use the axiom of choice to accurately select an element from the non-empty set, but the non-constructive nature of the existential quantifier guarantees this. I mean, when the number of sets is limited, why do we not need to specifically select a value from each non-empty set?

Arturo Magidin
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  • You have interpreted "existential instantiation" as saying "no selection is actually made", but I disagree with that interpretation. I think of existential instantiation as simply saying: we *can* select (or choose, or take) one element out of one nonempty set. – Lee Mosher Nov 16 '24 at 19:37
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    @LeeMosher Sorry, my choice of words was not appropriate. What I want to express is that when $B\neq\emptyset$ is established, through existential instantiation, we will get $b\in B$, where $b$ is an individual variable, not an individual constant. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 16 '24 at 19:45
  • I disagree with that interpretation too. You should just think of $b$ as a symbol. What existential instantiation does is to assign a constant value to that symbol. The existential quantifier binds the symbol $b$, and after being bound it should no longer be thought of as a variable. – Lee Mosher Nov 16 '24 at 19:47
  • I've expanded my comments into an answer. – Lee Mosher Nov 16 '24 at 19:51
  • @LeeMosher I read the book Basic Logic written by Professor Peng Mengyao of National Taiwan University, and this is how existential instantiation is explained in the book: $(EI)$,$(\exists\alpha)(\phi\alpha)/ \phi\beta$. Among them, $\beta$ cannot be an individual constant, and $\beta$ can only be an individual variable. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 16 '24 at 19:55
  • Perhaps, then, the issue is that you are trying to match the symbolic logic terminologies of two different books, but those two books don't match. As said in my answer, I don't even know what an "individual constant" and an "individual variable" are. I don't think that Tao's book makes that distinction either. – Lee Mosher Nov 16 '24 at 19:58
  • @LeeMosher Thank you for the reminder. Individual constants and individual variables are usually only mentioned specifically in logic textbooks. And the reason why I explain it in logical terms is because I read https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/132717/do-we-need-the-axiom-of-choice-for-finite-sets Professor Carl Mummert said: ”The ability to give a name to some arbitrary element of a nonempty set is known as existential instantiation. The intuition is that giving a name to an object does not really require "choosing" an object.” – Bao Yu Bo Nov 16 '24 at 20:09
  • You wrote that "$\forall B\in P(X)',,b\in B$" is used in the proof, but I don't see it in the part of the proof you quoted. As it stands, it seems to be about a particular $b$ and to say that this one $b$ is in all the sets $B$ in $P(X)'$. That's just false (provided $X$ has at least two elements). The "nearest" true statement that I can think of is $\forall B\in P(X)',\exists b,\ b\in B$. This statement is true by definition of $P(X)'$, and it allows for different $b$'s for different $B$'s (or even for the same $B$). And it easily implies $\forall B\in P(X)',, S_B\neq\emptyset$. – Andreas Blass Nov 17 '24 at 19:57
  • @AndreasBlass You're right, there was an error in how I wrote it and I edited the question to correct it. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 17 '24 at 20:12

1 Answers1

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You have mentioned an interpretation of "existential instantiation" as saying "no selection is actually made". And you have also mentioned it as saying "we don't have to make a choice". But I disagree with those interpretations.

I think of existential instantiation as simply saying: we can select (or choose, or take) one element $b$ out of one nonempty set $B$. Here we are forced to use a symbol for that element we took, and the symbol we are using in this discussion is $b$. While I am unsure what you mean by an "individual variable", whatever it might mean I think that it is not an appropriate description of $b$ after existential instantiation. The effect of existential instantiation is that the existential quantifer binds the symbol $b$, making it represent a well-defined element of the set $B$. So the symbol $b$ becomes a constant, representing an actual element of $B$.

And then, to address your paragraph referring to Tao's book regarding choice for a finite collection of nonempty sets, it's already proved for one set, and that's the basis step for the induction argument. To complete the argument I'll state the induction step: suppose that we can select (or choose, or take) $k$ elements $b_1,\ldots,b_k$ out of $k$ nonempty sets $B_1,\ldots,B_k$, respectively. Consider another nonempty set $B_{k+1}$. Using existential instantiation, we can select $b_{k+1} \in B_{k+1}$. Putting our choices together, namely the $k$ elements $b_1,\ldots,b_k$ and the element $b_{k+1}$, we have chosen $k+1$ elements $b_1,\ldots,b_{k+1}$ out of the sets $B_1,\ldots,B_{k+1}$, respectively.


Finally, except for a minor notation problem your proof of (2)$\implies$(1) starts out just fine. The notation problem is simple: instead of writing $\{B\} \times B$ you should write $\{\{B\} \times B \mid B \in P(X)'\} = \{(B,b) \mid B \in P(X)', b \in B\}$; and presumably also you intended to write $S_B = \{B\} \times B$.

So far there is no "circularity", because you haven't used (1).

Your next step does not use (1) either, although it does use existential instantiation. You have to prove the statement If $B \in P(X)'$ then $S_B = \{B\} \times B$ is nonempty. You start the proof by letting $B$ be any element of $P(X)'$. It follows that $B$ is not empty. So we may apply existential instantiation to the set $B$: we may choose $b \in B$. Therefore we have found an element of the set $\{B\} \times B$, namely $(B,b)$. This proves that the set $S_B = \{B\} \times B$ is nonempty.

Notice: All we have done is to combine nonemptyness of one set, namely $B$, together with existential instantiation, to prove nonemptiness of another set, namely $S_B$. We have not used the axiom of choice here, in any version --- except the version which goes under the title of existential instantion and which allows us to choose one element out of any one nonempty set.

After that your proof dwindles to an uncertain finish, but I suspect that you can now continue onward to complete the proof.

Lee Mosher
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  • Your explanation of "existential instantiation" is different from the explanation of "existential instantiation" in logic textbooks. I looked up the definition in the logic textbook. Given $B\neq\emptyset$, and through existence instantiation, $b\in B$ is established. At this time, $b$ does not represent a "specific" element in set $B$. In other words, $b$ may be $b_{1}$, $b_{2}$, $b_{3}$,... in set $B$. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 16 '24 at 20:38
  • I have thought about it for a long time. If we do not use individual variables and individual constants to explain this problem, but assume that $b\in B$ is obtained through existential instantiation, $b$ at this time is a specific value. So essentially, how do I convince myself that Proof $(2)\Longrightarrow (1)$ is not a circular argument? Because it has already used $\forall B\in P(X)’,b\in B$, but $b$ is a specific value. Doesn't this implicitly use the axiom of choice? – Bao Yu Bo Nov 17 '24 at 12:46
  • I expanded my answer to address your question about (2)$\implies$(1). – Lee Mosher Nov 17 '24 at 14:36
  • Sorry, I think my issue is still not resolved. You said that we obtained $b\in B$ based on "existence instantiation", but at this time $b$ is already a certain value. Is there any essential difference between this and the statement of the axiom of choice? The axiom of choice tells us that we can pick a clear value from an infinite number of non-empty sets. Is there something wrong with my understanding? – Bao Yu Bo Nov 17 '24 at 17:31
  • I don't see anywhere in what you've written where $b$ has been already assigned a value whose scope includes the proof that $S_B \ne \emptyset$. Are you concerned about the occurrence of the symbol $b$ in the set expression ${(B,b) \mid B \in P(X)', b \in B}$? If so, that occurrence is bound within the scope of the set expression. The variable $b$ is released for later re-use once that set expression is complete. If you have ever had a programming theory course, it's not unlike variables bound to subroutines; you are free to re-use the variable in an independent subroutine. – Lee Mosher Nov 17 '24 at 17:41
  • In my initial stated view, I believe that $B\neq\emptyset$, after "existential instantiation", obtains $b\in B$. At this time, $b$ is an undetermined value. This is consistent with the view of Professor Carl Mummert. I checked Books related to logic also confirm this. That's why I use logical terms to say "$b$ is an individual variable". What I mean is that $b$ does not represent a "specific" value in the set $B$. It may represent $(b=b_{1}) \vee (b=b_{2}) \vee…$, among which $b_{1},b_{2},..\in B$. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 17 '24 at 18:01
  • Professor Carl Mummert believes that "existential instantiation" does not involve real choice, it is a non-constructive choice. I also agree with this view, because it is consistent with the facts I obtained after checking logic-related books. Sorry, I have not studied programming courses. I have only studied a little logic, so I have no way to understand this problem from the level of programming courses. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 17 '24 at 18:01
  • You are allowed, in mathematical practice, to isolate one usage of "existential instantiation" within one isolated scope. It might be useful to learn how, in general mathematical practice, variables and quantifiers, and the scope of variables, is governed. That is what I've tried to explain, and I'm out of ideas for explaining better, so I'll sign off now. – Lee Mosher Nov 17 '24 at 18:05
  • Hello Professor Lee Mosher! My question has been solved, your explanation is correct . There is indeed no "circular argument" in the proof. It is me who confused the difference between "the axiom of choice" and “existential instantiation". For a finite set family, we can use "existential instantiation" plus "mathematical induction" to find the choice function, but for an infinite set family, "mathematical induction" is no longer applicable, so just Using “existential instantiation" cannot prove that there is a choice function on the set family, so we need to introduce the "axiom of choice". – Bao Yu Bo Nov 20 '24 at 13:11
  • In addition, there is no fundamental conflict between your views and those of Professor Carl Mummert. No matter how you view the so-called "choice", as long as we ensure that $b$ obtained through "existential instantiation" is a brand new symbol, then no matter $b$ is "Individual variables" or "individual constants" technically do not cause any problems. I have written in the book SYMBOLIC LOGIC written by Professor I.M. Copi and the book Basic Logic written by Professor Peng Mengyao of the Department of Philosophy of National Taiwan University. , found the explanation. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 20 '24 at 13:21
  • In this article I explain why, given an infinite family of sets, we need the axiom of choice to guarantee the existence of a choice function, because "the axiom of choice" is a stronger statement than "existential instantiation”. https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/5000315/the-difference-between-existential-instantiation-and-the-axiom-of-choice I'm glad my problem is solved because this problem has been bothering me for a long time. Finally I would like to thank you again for your detailed explanation. – Bao Yu Bo Nov 20 '24 at 13:29