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I was reading this stackexchange post and am confused about the following logical equivalence. I have tried to generalize what they've done as follows:

∀x[∀y[f(y)] → g(x)] ; for all x, if for all y, f(y) is true, then g(x) is true
∀x[~∀y[f(y)] V g(x)]
∀x[∃y~[f(y)] V g(x)]
∀x∃y[~[f(y)] V g(x)]
∀x∃y[f(y) → g(x)] ; for all x and at least 1 y, if f(y) is true, then g(x) is true

I've also written them out in plain English. Aren't their meanings significantly different? If you give them some intuitive meanings, they still remain different:

∀x[∀y[veggie(y) → dislikes(x,y)] → smart(x)] ; If all people dislike all vegetarians, then they are smart
∀x[~∀y[veggie(y) → dislikes(x,y)] V smart(x)]
∀x[∃y~[veggie(y) → dislikes(x,y)] V smart(x)]
∀x∃y[~[veggie(y) → dislikes(x,y)] V smart(x)]
∀x∃y[(veggie(y) → dislikes(x,y)) → smart(x)] ; If all people dislike at least one vegetarian, then they are smart

I'm confused as to why the scope of the quantifier affects the statement at all.

ryang
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1 Answers1

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$∀x\Big(∀y f(y) → g(x)\Big)\tag{A1}$ for all x, if for all y, f(y) is true, then g(x) is true

$∀x∃y\Big(f(y) → g(x)\Big)\tag{A2}$ for all x and at least 1 y, if f(y) is true, then g(x) is true

Yes, the four sentences above are equivalent to one another. I've written a proof in the appendix of this answer.


$∀x\Big(∀y \big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) → \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\big) → \operatorname{Smart}(x)\Big)\tag{B1}$ If all people dislike all vegetarians, then they are smart $\color\red{\textbf{✗}}$

Your translation means $$∀x∀y \Big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) → \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\Big) → ∀\color\red z\operatorname{Smart}(\color\red z),$$ whereas statement B1 means:
Everyone who dislikes every vegetarian is smart. (B1)


The following is indeed logically equivalent to statement B1:

$∀x∃y\Big(\big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) → \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\big) → \operatorname{Smart}(x)\Big)\tag{B2}$ If all people dislike at least one vegetarian, then they are smart $\color\red{\textbf{✗}}$

You translation has two possible meanings: $$∀x∃y \Big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) \color\red \land \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\Big) → ∀\color\red z \operatorname{Smart}(\color\red z)\\ ∃y∀x \Big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) \color\red \land \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\Big) → ∀\color\red z \operatorname{Smart}(\color\red z).$$

On the other hand, statement B2 is best translated mechanistically and means:
For each person x, some person y exists such that the following holds: if x dislikes y if y is vegetarian, then x is smart. (B2)


Reply to the OP's comment

Then what does does this mean? $∀x∀y\Big(\big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y)→\operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\big)→\operatorname{Smart}(x)\Big)\tag{C1}$

Statement C1 means (note that $x$ and $y$ can refer to the same person):
For every couple (x,y), if x dislikes y if y is vegetarian, then x is smart. (C1)

Statement C1 is a stronger assertion than statement B1 (Everyone who dislikes every vegetarian is smart / $∀x\Big(∀y \big(\operatorname{Veggie}(y) → \operatorname{Dislikes}(x,y)\big) → \operatorname{Smart}(x)\Big)$ ). For example, in the following scenario, B1 is true but C1 is false:

  • the universe comprises Adam and Eve, each of whom likes themself, and between whom the smart carnivore likes the stupid vegetarian but not vice versa.

Statement C1 is in fact logically equivalent to:
For every couple (x,y), either x likes y and y is vegetarian or x is smart. (C2)

I'm struggling to intuitively grasp how B1 is logically equivalent to B2.

Okay, let's simplify the issue: you're asking how these two are equivalent sentences: $\Big(\forall y\,\big(Vy\to aDy\big)\Big) \to Sa\tag{D1}$ $\exists y\Big((Vy\to aDy)\to Sa\Big)\tag{D2}.$ Existentially quantified conditionals are unnatural to parse in natural language, so I agree that the sentence construction D2 is hard to intuitively grasp. If the contrapositive argument in the abovementioned appendix doesn't convince you that D1D2, you could alternatively use the equivalence $(P\to R\:\equiv\: R \lor \lnot P)$ to convert each conditional to a disjunction.

ryang
  • 44,428
  • I'm struggling to grasp this intuitively. As you said, in sentence (2a), x only needs to dislike one vegetarian, whereas in the original sentence, he needs to dislike all vegetarians. How could these 2 ever be equivalent? – work work Sep 09 '24 at 22:50
  • What would ∀x∀y((Veggie(y)→Dislikes(x,y))→Smart(x)) mean then? – work work Sep 09 '24 at 23:25
  • @workwork I've just replied by adding an addendum, and have also relabelled the sentences such that A1≡A2, B1≡B2, C1≡C2 and the "(2a)" that you referred to is now (B2). – ryang Sep 10 '24 at 08:37
  • @workwork It's possible your intuitions are intuitionistic, in which case these two sentences are just not equivalent. – Dan Doel Sep 10 '24 at 15:58
  • @ryang Why do you say "if x dislikes y if y is vegetarian" for C1? Shouldn't it be "if y is a vegetarian, then x dislikes y"? – work work Sep 13 '24 at 06:19
  • I'm unable to comment on your other post, so I'll ask my question here.

    "existentially-quantified conditional is unusual because it isn't typically a useful form: for example, it cannot be framed as a categorical proposition"

    So would you say that given a specific problem, I should try to make it as tightly scoped as possible to try and understand it?

    Because right now I don't see the difference between ∀x ∃y[f(y) -> g(x)] and ∀x[∃y[f(y)] -> g(x)]

    – work work Sep 13 '24 at 06:41
  • @workwork 1. Pease don't disregard the parentheses (helpfully written out in hierachical sizes) in the symbolic version of C1. $\quad$ And observe that the only possible way to parse if x dislikes y if y is vegetarian, then x is smart (C1 without its quantifications) is as if (x dislikes y if y is vegetarian), then x is smart. – ryang Sep 13 '24 at 12:28
  • @workwork 2. You're now asking about the difference between ∃y(Fy → G) (call this Sentence R) and (∃y Fy) → G (Sentence S). $\quad$ Well, ∃y(Fy → G) (R) ≡ G ∨ ∃y ¬Fy(∀y Fy) → G $\not≡$ (∃y Fy) → G (S). $\quad$ I've agreed that sentence R is trickily phrased (everybody has trouble intuiting it); the good news is that in practice the sentence construction R is not encountered in mathematics or everyday language. – ryang Sep 15 '24 at 06:04