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After reading answers to this question I can't help being confused about axioms 2 and 4 being truly independent, or about their true meaning for that matter.

Recalling them, for a given set $X$:

  1. If $N$ is a neighbourhood of $x \in X$ (i.e., $N \in \mathcal N(x)$), then $x \in N$.
  2. If $N \in \mathcal N(x)$ and $N \subseteq N'$ then $N' \in \mathcal N(x)$.
  3. If $N, N' \in \mathcal N(x)$ then $N \cap N' \in \mathcal N(x)$.
  4. For any $x \in X$ and $N \in \mathcal N(x)$ there exists $N' \in \mathcal N(x)$ such that for every $y \in N'$ it holds that $N \in \mathcal N(y)$.

Now my questions:

  1. By (1) and (4), does it follow that $N' \subseteq N$ (referring to $N'$ and $N$ as in 4)?
  2. Are $N'$ and $N$ required to be different (i.e. 'proper inclusion') in 4?
  3. Can you give an example of a neighbourhood system that would satisfy the first three axioms but not the fourth (assuming the later false for the purpose)?
  • Hi, welcome to MSE! I've edited your post to use MathJax, which is how you can format mathematics on this site. You can see the new source here. There is a comically thorough and overwhelming reference post for MathJax here, but don't let it scare you :) it's really not so hard to do some basic typesetting with, and if there's anything more you don't understand I'm sure other users here will be happy to help with future posts. – Izaak van Dongen Feb 25 '24 at 21:36
  • Thanks! I will make sure to use MathJax in future texts. – AmazingWouldBeGreatBut Feb 26 '24 at 13:00

1 Answers1

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I find that it helps with understanding these types of statements to firstly re-state them in more plain English. So "if $N$ is a neighbourhood of $x$, then if $N$ is enlarged it remains a neighbourhood of $x$" and "if $N$ is a neighbourhood of $x$, then it contains a smaller neighbourhood $M$ of $x$ such that $N$ is a neighbourhood of each point in $M$". It also helps to have some (perhaps slightly non-rigorous) heuristic, or slogan, or picture in mind. For example "$N$ is a neighbourhood of $x$ means that if you move $x$ a tiny little bit then it stays in $N$" (then axiom 4 says "if you move $x$ a tiny bit, $N$ will still be a neighbourhood of $x$"). Or you might find it helps you to ground these examples in a concrete setting like $X = \Bbb R^2$ with the usual topology, by checking why these axioms are actually true in that case.

As for your questions:

  1. Yes, indeed the $N'$ in axiom 4 will be a subset of $N$ (in fact that's even how it's stated at the question you link).

  2. No, that's not required. For example, in a space with the indiscrete topology, every point has only a single neighbourhood.

  3. To give an example of axiom 4 failing, we have to give an example of a set and neighbourhood systems for all points in the set. Axiom 4 is the only axiom that says anything about how neighbourhood systems of different points interact with each other - so if you "randomly" assign neighbourhood systems which are otherwise plausible, you're likely to come up with a counterexample.

    Here is one: let $X$ be $\Bbb R$. Let $\mathcal N(0)$ be the set of all neighbourhoods in the usual sense (ie all subsets of $\Bbb R$ that contain $(-\epsilon, \epsilon)$ for some $\epsilon > 0$). For any $x \ne 0$, let $\mathcal N(x)$ consist only of the set $\Bbb R$. Roughly, we're mashing together the notions of "neighbourhood" from the Euclidean topology and from the indiscrete topology, and hoping something will go wrong. For each $x$, axioms 1-3 are satisfied. However, for example, there is no neighbourhood $M$ of $0$ contained in $(-1, 1)$ such that $(-1, 1)$ is a neighbourhood of every point in $M$. So axiom 4 is violated.


One can come up with more extreme examples, where axiom 4 is violated "everywhere". The first one that I can come up with off the top of my head is this: take $X = \Bbb R$ again. For each $x \in \Bbb R$, let $\mathcal N(x)$ be the set of all subsets of $\Bbb R$ that contain $(x - 1, x + 1)$. It's again not hard to see that axioms 1-3 are satisfied everywhere. However, for each $x$, the neighbourhood $(x - 1, x + 1)$ is only a neighbourhood of $x$, but its only subset which is a neighbourhood of $x$ is $(x - 1, x + 1)$. So axiom 4 now fails "everywhere".

There is no real need to use $\Bbb R$, of course. This example can be made to work just as well using a similar idea with a finite set.

  • I think the root of my misunderstanding was implicitly assuming the following: If $N$ is a neighbourhood of $x \in X$ (i.e., $N \in \mathcal N(x)$) and $y \in N$ then $N \in \mathcal N(y)$. That is, I thought that a neighbourhood assumed for a given element was a neighbourhood for each one of its contained elements. I need to think over it a bit more, but your explanation has helped me a lot. – AmazingWouldBeGreatBut Feb 26 '24 at 13:29
  • About your answer to my second question: wouldn't the 4th axiom be trivially fulfilled in any set if we allow for non-proper inclusion? Like this: for any $x \in X$ and $N \in \mathcal N(x)$ there exists $N \in \mathcal N(x)$ such that for every $y \in N$ it holds that $N \in \mathcal N(y)$. – AmazingWouldBeGreatBut Feb 26 '24 at 13:30
  • @AmazingWouldBeGreatBut, the fourth axiom is not trivially satisfied, because of what you're talking about in your first comment. A neighbourhood of $x$ is not automatically a neighbourhood of all its points. "$N$ is a neighbourhood of $x$" really only tells you what $N$ looks like "near $x$". For example in the Euclidean topology on $\Bbb R$, the set $N = (-0.1, 0.1) \cup \Bbb Z$ is a neighbourhood of $0$ but not of any other points in $\Bbb Z$. To show this $N$ satisfies the fourth axiom, you have to take a proper subset $N'$, such as $(-0.1, 0.1)$. – Izaak van Dongen Feb 26 '24 at 15:03
  • Indeed, another embarrassing overlooking of mine :). Anyway, you are right. Accepting your answer and thanking your dearly for the time you invested - you really made a difference in my goal of understanding the axioms. Great, great help. – AmazingWouldBeGreatBut Feb 26 '24 at 15:10
  • @AmazingWouldBeGreatBut, I'm happy to have helped :) – Izaak van Dongen Feb 26 '24 at 15:11