7

I wonder if someone would be kind enough to check a solution that I feel contains an error?

Question

A small bead, of mass $m$, is threaded on a smooth circular wire, with centre $O$ and radius $a$, which is fixed in a vertical plane. You may further assume that the bead can freely access all parts of the vertically fixed wire.

A light inextensible string has one of its ends attached to the bead, passes through a smooth ring at $O$, and has its other end attached to a particle of mass $M$, which is hanging freely vertically below $O$.

The bead is projected from the lowest part of the wire with speed $u$ and makes complete revolutions passing through the highest part of the wire with speed $\sqrt{12ag}$.

Determine an expression for $u^2$, in terms of $a$ and $g$, and show that $11m \le M \le 17 m$.

(The question is number 7 on this paper: FM2)

Given solution

Detailed diagram

(For the full solution see FM2 Solutions) I write the main ideas here.

Let $\theta, v$ be defined in the diagram. Using conservation of energy, we have $v^2 = u^2 -2ag + 2ag\cos\theta$. Setting $v^2 = 12ag$ at $\theta = \pi$, we see that $u^2 = 16ag$. $\cdots (1)$.

We resolve forces radially. Let the positive direction be inwards. Let $T=Mg$ be the tension due to the string and $R$ the reaction force due to the hoop. Since the radial acceleration is $-v^2/a$ , we have $m(-v^2/a)=mg\cos\theta - Mg - R$ and thus using $(1)$, we have $R = 14mg + 3mg\cos\theta - Mg$. $\cdots (2)$

There exists some $\theta$ for which $R=0$, so $\cos\theta = (M-14m)/3m$ has a solution, so $11m\le M \le 17m$.

My problem

The bounds on $M$ is the part I have issue with.

Deriving up to $(2)$: $R=14mg+3mg \cos(\theta)- Mg$, is straightforward, but the subsequent analysis (specifically setting $R=0$) is the part of concern.

Given that the bead is fixed on the circular path and there is a tension towards the centre that will provide a component of the centripetal force, then the reaction force can be acting in either direction at any point.

At the top of the circle, as long as the net radial force is towards the centre, then the motion is possible, i.e. $R+Mg+mg=15mg + 3mg\times(-1)$ so we require $R+Mg+mg>12mg$, hence $R+Mg>11mg$.

Likewise at the lowest point we would have $R+Mg-mg=13mg+3mg\times 1$ ,so we require $R+Mg-mg>16mg$, hence $R+Mg>17mg$.

Given that $R$ can be acting either towards the centre or away from the centre, I cannot see the relevance of setting $R=0$.

Dave M
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    Welcome to MSE. A question posted here should be as self-contained as possible. – José Carlos Santos Apr 27 '23 at 09:30
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    I wrote an answer to this which I've now deleted because I think the argumentation is faulty. I'll ask my teacher about it tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll just remark that I think the solution is very sketchy: when they say "Now we have $R=0$", I have to laugh, because when is "now"? They just set it to zero and said it should be possible for it to be zero at any particular angle, without explaining why. It's also confusing because for a bead on a wire, the reaction force may act radially inward or outward at any moment... – FShrike Apr 27 '23 at 14:01
  • It seems like the solution relies on the idea that there exists some $\theta$ for which $R=0$. This seems to require justification. I don't intuitively see any reason for the bound on $m$ to exist, given that there is no friction involved. – Benjamin Wang Apr 27 '23 at 14:34

1 Answers1

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I agree with your interpretation of the physics of the question. There is no reason to assume that there is ever an angle at which $R = 0$.

Since the velocity of the bead can be determined at every angle and the radial component of the bead's weight likewise can be determined at every angle, and since $T$ and $R$ are the only other forces on the bead, it is possible to determine the force $T + R - mg\cos\theta$ that is required to provide the necessary radial acceleration at every point along the bead's path.

If we assumed the bead had a coefficient of friction with the wire, the normal force $R$ between the wire and bead would be relevant to the tangential deceleration of the bead. But we seem to be assured that there is no friction.

There does not appear to be any other constraint on $R$ other than the formula $T + R - mg\cos\theta = mv^2/a.$ So we can set $T$ to any non-negative value we want (by choosing $M$; negative values are not possible) and then solve for $R.$

Perhaps there was originally meant to be an additional condition in the question that said the bead presses down on the wire (or the wire presses upward on the bead) at the top of the loop. Then it would be true that $R = 0$ at some point along the wire. But I don't see any such condition in the problem statement.


Here is a related problem where the idea that $R = 0$ is relevant:

A small bead, of mass $m$, is contained within a thin cylindrical drum with center $O$ and radius $a$, oriented so that the bead is constrained to a vertical plane. The bead may travel anywhere inside the drum.

A light inextensible string has one of its ends attached to the bead, passes through a smooth ring at $O$, and has its other end attached to a particle of mass $M$, which is hanging freely vertically below $O$.

The bead is projected from the lowest part of the drum with speed $4\sqrt{ag}$ in a direction tangent to the drum. Initially, the bead follows the curved surface of the drum, but before reaching the top of the drum the bead loses contact with the drum's curved surface.

Show that $11m \leq M \leq 17 m$.

Now $R = 0$ at the point where the bead loses contact with the curved surface. But in losing contact with the surface, the bead fails to reach the top of a circular path of radius $a,$ so we cannot say that its speed is $\sqrt{12ag}$ at the top of the loop.

I think that in writing this problem, someone either improperly combined some kind of problem like this with another problem or tried to turn such a problem into a two-parter by making the answer first compute the speed at the bottom, neglecting the fact that the modified problem no longer requires that $R = 0$ at any point.

David K
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  • Interesting... using the energy of the system we find: $$R=mg(14+3\cos\theta)-Mg$$And you think that any value of $R$ is ok here, so no particular constraint on $M$? I feel like physically very small or very large values of $M$ would break the problem somehow – FShrike Apr 27 '23 at 17:19
  • @FShrike Assuming classical mechanics with idealized components (perfectly rigid wire, no friction, unbreakable string, etc.), I don't see any constraint on $M.$ In the real world, of course, there would be friction, and eventually with enough tension the string would break or cause the wire to deform. But such constraints are not a part of a problem like this. My hunch is that the author of the problem either forgot a constraint or made a mistake while adapting this problem from another problem. – David K Apr 27 '23 at 17:47
  • For example, suppose $M = 0.$ Then there is no tension in the string, but the bead would still start at the bottom of the loop at speed $\sqrt{16ag}$ and reach the top of the loop with speed $\sqrt{12ag}$. Or make $M$ very large; then $R$ would be negative over the whole loop, likewise with no effect on the speed of the bead since the forces $T$ and $R$ are perpendicular to the direction of motion. – David K Apr 27 '23 at 17:49
  • I’m almost there, I just have one counterpoint to make. You have maybe seen my deleted answer: I argued that at the very top, $R$ should act away from the centre to oppose the straight-down forces of tension and weight, so in the equation (with $\theta=\pi$) we get: $$0\ge R=mg(14+3\cos\theta)-Mg=g(11m-M)$$Deducing $M\ge11m$. Why doesn’t that work? After all, the tension and weight will pull the bead down onto the wire so the reaction of the wire on the bead is reasonably going to act upwards. – FShrike Apr 27 '23 at 18:02
  • @FShrike The tension and weight pull the bead down, but that does not ensure that the wire is exerting an upward force. If the tension and weight are insufficient to keep the particle traveling along a circular path of radius $a,$ then the wire will push downward in order to keep the bead on that path. That is what happens if there is no string attached to the bead and it reaches the top of the loop at the given speed. – David K Apr 27 '23 at 18:10
  • Right. I can get confused with the causality: is the fact it is obviously moving in a circle causing the reaction force, or does the reaction force (caused by something else) make it move in a circle? That's why I was quizzing. But I understand now – FShrike Apr 27 '23 at 18:20
  • @DavidK You wrote, "Perhaps there was originally meant to be an additional condition in the question that said the bead presses down on the wire (or the wire presses upward on the bead) at the top of the loop. Then it would be true that $R=0$ at some point along the wire." Why can't the $R$ be negative around the whole loop? – Dan Apr 29 '23 at 03:40
  • @Dan Good point, that condition at the top of the loop would only determine a minimum $M.$ A condition at the bottom of the loop could determine a maximum $M.$ It seems unlikely that the problem writer forgot all of this. – David K Apr 29 '23 at 11:26