47

In the first introductory chapter of his book Gravitation and cosmology: principles and applications of the general theory of relativity Steven Weinberg discusses the origin of non-euclidean geometries and the "inner properties" of surfaces.

He mentions that distances between all pairs of 4 points on a flat surface satisfy a particular relation:

$$\begin{align} 0 &= d_{12}^4d_{34}^2 + d_{13}^4d_{24}^2 + d_{14}^4d_{23}^2 + d_{23}^4d_{14}^2 + d_{24}^4d_{13}^2 + d_{34}^4 d_{12}^2\\ &\phantom{{}=} + d_{12}^2 d_{23}^2 d_{31}^2 + d_{12}^2 d_{24}^2d_{41}^2 + d_{13}^2d_{34}^2d_{41}^2 + d_{23}^2d_{34}^2d_{42}^2\\ &\phantom{{}=} - d_{12}^2d_{23}^2d_{34}^2- d_{13}^2d_{32}^2d_{24}^2 - d_{12}^2d_{24}^2d_{43}^2 - d_{14}^2d_{42}^2d_{23}^2\\ &\phantom{{}=} - d_{13}^2d_{34}^2d_{42}^2 - d_{14}^2d_{43}^2d_{32}^2 - d_{23}^2d_{31}^2d_{14}^2 - d_{21}^2d_{13}^2d_{34}^2\\ &\phantom{{}=} - d_{24}^2d_{41}^2d_{13}^2 - d_{21}^2d_{14}^2d_{43}^2 - d_{31}^2d_{12}^2d_{24}^2 - d_{32}^2d_{21}^2d_{14}^2 \end{align}$$

and then presents the reader with the map of Tolkien's Middle Earth with distances between four cities indicated:

  • $d$(Hobbiton, Erebor) = 813 mi
  • $d$(Erebor, Dagorlad) = 735 mi
  • $d$(Dagorlad, City of Corsairs) = 780 mi
  • $d$(City of Corsairs, Hobbiton) = 1112 mi
  • $d$(Hobbiton, Dagorlad) = 960 mi
  • $d$(Erebor, City of Corsairs) = 1498 mi

Substituting these numbers into the rhs of the formula I got $588330312698242944 \ \rm{mi}^6 \approx (915.384 \ \rm{mi})^6$.

So my questions are:

  1. If this is correct then what is the Middle Earth: surface of a ball or a hyperboloid? Is it possible to find its radius?

  2. How did Weinberg get this relation? He just writes that it's "easy to show".

xaxa
  • 960
  • 7
  • 14
  • 4
    There is a relation between the mutual distances of four points $a, b, c, d$ in plane, which goes roughly as follows: The Gram matrix of the vectors $b-a, c-a, d-a$ has determinant $0$ (because its rows are linearly dependent), but can also be written in terms of these distances (or, rather, their squares, since $x^T y = \dfrac{1}{2}\left(\left|\left|x+y\right|\right|^2-\left|\left|x\right|\right|^2-\left|\left|y\right|\right|^2\right)$), and so we get a relation between these distances. I guess it's your relation, since it should be the only one. – darij grinberg Jul 06 '15 at 15:03
  • why do we have, for example, $d_{12}$ in the first bit and $d_{21}$ in the last - is there a difference when squared? – JMP Jul 06 '15 at 15:06
  • Curious! I had said that Tolkien probably drew a map on a paper and took the measures there. It should be flat. But it isn't! – ajotatxe Jul 06 '15 at 15:09
  • @JonMarkPerry I've written the formula exactly as it is written in the book, I believe there is no difference. – xaxa Jul 06 '15 at 15:09
  • 10
    The relationship is equivalent to the vanishing of the Cayler Menger determinant.

    $$\det\begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 1 & 1 & 1\ 1 & 0 & d_{12}^2 & d_{13}^2 & d_{14}^2\ 1 & d_{12}^2 & 0 & d_{23}^2 & d_{24}^2\ 1 & d_{13}^2 & d_{23}^2 & 0 & d_{34}^2\ 1 & d_{14}^2 & d_{24}^2 & d_{34}^2 & 0\ \end{bmatrix} = 0$$ which is proportional to the square of the volume of a tetrahedron given the length of edges.

    – achille hui Jul 06 '15 at 15:10
  • 1
    seeing as this is Tolkien, according to AD&D, what is it's alignment? – JMP Jul 06 '15 at 15:15
  • 2
    See http://www.planet-tolkien.com/board/7/3499/0/accurate-distances and http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-95863.html. It seems that these numbers are not actually from Tolkien. I personally don't remember reading any distances in miles in the books; certainly not with four-digit accuracy. – joriki Jul 06 '15 at 15:17
  • Those old-timey books give distances in "leagues". My dictionary says a league is about three miles. – GEdgar Jul 06 '15 at 15:24
  • 1
    @GEdgar it wouldn't matter as all distances would be multiplied by the same number if you change the measuring unites – xaxa Jul 06 '15 at 15:26
  • 1
  • The middle earth isn't flat b/c the corr CM determinant non-zero $. 2) If I didn't make any mistake, the middle earth is pretty small. The given distances can be realized as geodesic distances on a sphere of radius 693.66mi.
  • – achille hui Jul 07 '15 at 15:07
  • @achillehui How did you estimate the radius? – xaxa Jul 07 '15 at 16:57
  • Assume the $4$ cities $p_i$ lie on a sphere with radius $R$. Let $\theta_{ij} = \frac{d_{ij}}{R}$ and $\phi_{i,jk} = \angle p_j p_i p_k$. We know

    $$\phi_{i,jk} = \cos^{-1}\left(\frac{\cos \theta_{jk} - \cos\theta_{ij}\cos\theta_{ik}}{\sin\theta_{ij}\sin\theta_{ik}}\right)$$

    The three $\phi$ angles attached to a city $p_i$ are not independent. Take $p_1$ as an example. For a suitable choice of $\pm$, we have $$\pm \phi_{1,23} \pm \phi_{1,34} \pm \phi_{1,24} = 0 \text{ or } 2\pi$$ What I do is numerically search for a $R$ which allow a relation of this form in every city.

    – achille hui Jul 07 '15 at 17:43
  • @achillehui I was able to reproduce your $R$ by considering that first city was on the pole of a sphere, second at $(\theta_2,0)$ (spherical coordinates), third at $(\theta_3,\phi_3)$ and fourth at $(\theta_4, \phi_4)$. Then I used that for any two points $\cos (d_{ik}/R) = \cos \theta_i\cos \theta_k + \sin\theta_i \sin \theta_k\cos(\phi_i-\phi_k)$. And then solved numerically 6 equations for 6 unknowns. This is basically the same method as yours. I got $R=693$, second city at $(67°, 0)$, third at $(79°, 62°)$, fourth at $(92°, 126°)$. Please post your answer as the Answer, and I'll accept it. – xaxa Jul 07 '15 at 20:58
  • 19
    Ring theory tag is cute. – nomen Jul 08 '15 at 19:52
  • 3
    Since @joriki brought up the accuracy of the distances, I thought I'd check how sensitive the problem is to rounding. Could the apparent non-flatness be a result of someone getting a ones'-place digit wrong? The answer is no: at least one of the distances has to change by at least $26.3$ miles. The "nearest" flat configuration has distances $839.3$, $761.3$, $806.3$, $1138.3$, $933.7$, and $1471.7$ miles. –  Jul 09 '15 at 02:06
  • @Rahul, "nearest" means that you change distances to $d'{ij} = d{ij} + \epsilon_{ij}$ and find those $\epsilon_{ij}$ that minimze $\sum_{i<j} \epsilon^2_{ij}$? – xaxa Jul 09 '15 at 09:37
  • It minimizes $\max|d'{ij}-d{ij}|$. I should have said "the corresponding flat configuration" related to the assertion in my previous sentence. –  Jul 09 '15 at 15:13
  • Related (I believe): Section 3 of Schoenberg, I. J. (1935), Remarks to Maurice Frechet’s Article ``Sur La Definition Axiomatique D’Une Classe D’Espace Distances Vectoriellement Applicable Sur L’Espace De Hilbert, The Annals of Mathematics, 36(3), 724. doi:10.2307/1968654. But strangely, Schoenberg's conditions for the given numbers to be spherical distances of a bunch of points on a sphere are a set of inequalities, so one should expect the radius of a sphere to be only bound to an interval, not determined up to finitely many values? – darij grinberg Nov 27 '18 at 22:02