0

In Peter Szekeres's "A Course in Modern Mathematical Physics" on page 64, he introduces a vector space he denotes $\hat{\mathbb{R}}^\infty$:

The set $\hat{\mathbb{R}}^\infty$ of all sequences of real numbers $(a_0, a_1, \ldots)$ having only a finite number of non-zero members $a_i \neq 0$ is a vector space, using the same rules of vector addition and scalar multiplication given for $\mathbb{R}^\infty$ in Example 3.6. The elements of $\hat{\mathbb{R}}^\infty$ are real sequences of the form $(a_0, a_1, \ldots, a_m, 0, 0, 0, \ldots)$.

The last sentence confuses me. If I've interpreted it correctly, it says that any non-zero element must occur within the first finite number of elements of the sequence. Why must all non-zero elements occur within the first finite number of elements of the sequence? I think I understand why the non-zero elements can't occur at the end of the sequence: the sequence is of infinite length and so the "end" isn't well-defined. Is that reasoning sound? But, why can't we have something like $(0, \ldots, a_0, a_1, \ldots, a_m, 0, \ldots)$ where there are infinite 0s before the first non-zero element, followed by infinite 0s after the last non-zero element? If this is valid, then we can think of variations on this theme. For example, $(a_0, 0, \ldots, a_1, \ldots, a_m, 0, \ldots)$ (i.e., a non-zero element, followed by infinite 0 elements, followed by some finite number of non-zero elements, followed by infinite 0 elements) and other such sequences.

To add some final, unfinished thoughts to this question, I expect that the validity of my claims above might rest on whether each of the proposed sequences (e.g., $(0, \ldots, a_0, a_1, \ldots, a_m, 0, \ldots)$) is well-formed, which I believe is tantamount to saying that each sequence is a countable set (each sequence in $\hat{\mathbb{R}}^\infty$ is clearly countable by virtue of being able to be placed in a sequence). The last related piece of information that comes to mind here is that the union of countably-many countable sets is countable. Since $(0, 0, \ldots)$ and $(a_0, a_1, \ldots, a_m)$ are countable perhaps we can use a union to combine them in some way to reach $(0, \ldots, a_0, a_1, \ldots, a_m, 0, \ldots)$. Any elucidation of these thoughts and whether they apply and are valid here would be appreciated.

MattHusz
  • 771
  • 1
    To address only your first question: that notation does not rule out the possibility, say, that $a_6 = 0, a_7 \ne 0$, and then everything after $a_8$ is zero. – JonathanZ Apr 24 '25 at 16:36
  • Agreed, and that's not a point of confusion for me. I tried to address the fact the the $a_i$ could be 0 with my statement "any non-zero element must occur within the first finite number of elements of the sequence", though perhaps I could have been more explicit about this. – MattHusz Apr 24 '25 at 16:39
  • Yes, an "infinite number of leading zeros" is also impossible, because you are indexing by $\mathbb N$, and the way $\lt$ works on $\mathbb N$, there is no member with an infinite number of indexes less that it. If you want to switch to indexing by, say $\mathbb Z$, then you can have that, but that's a different space. – JonathanZ Apr 24 '25 at 16:41
  • If all but a finite number of the elements are zero, then there is a maximum index that is non-zero, say $n$. Then $a_i=0$ for all $i\gt n$. Is that what you don't understand? – John Douma Apr 24 '25 at 16:43
  • @JohnDouma Yep, that does capture my confusion, and it sounds like it might be the same thing JonathanZ is saying. – MattHusz Apr 24 '25 at 16:45
  • 1
    Indexed positions must have a finite index. To say $r$ will occur in a position after and infinite number of positions simply makes no sense. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 16:46
  • @MattHusz Do you get it now? – John Douma Apr 24 '25 at 16:47
  • As for your question about being a countable set allowing your notation: So, when you write your elements that way, you are implicitly using an order on the index set. "Order" is an additional concept that is beyond "size" - check out the difference between cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers for details, it's very cool math. And your notation is incompatible with the standard order on N. – JonathanZ Apr 24 '25 at 16:48
  • If anything occurs anywhere at all. It has to occur at a finite position. Because occurring at unspecified non-finite position is meaningless gibberish. Everything occurs at a finite position. Even if there are an infinite number of things occuring and an infinite number of postitions for the things to occur, they each individually occur at a finite position. Nothing else makes any sense. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 16:49
  • 1
    @fleablood - It might be going beyond what the OP is expecting to deal with, but I'd be comfortable with someone deciding to index by the ordinal $\omega+ \omega$, and then some index positions would have an infinite number of predecessors. That said, I noticed that this is from a mathematical physics book, and perhaps indexing by anything other that N should be off the table. – JonathanZ Apr 24 '25 at 16:52
  • "But, why can't we have something like (0,…,a0,a1,…,am,0,…) where there are infinite 0s before the first non-zero element, followed by infinite 0s after the last non-zero element? " Because $a_0$ does not have a specified position. To say there are an infinite number of spaces before $a_1$ and $a_1$ then shows up in a specific location after and infinite number of spaces is unresolvable and incapible of being meaningful. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 16:52
  • 2
    @JonathanZ well, ... yes, but that's not a "sequence". A sequence by definition is a mapping from $\mathbb N$. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 16:54
  • @fleablood ok I think your explanation of "If anything occurs anywhere at all. It has to occur at a finite position." seems reasonable and largely makes sense. It sounds like I need to read more up on ordinals and cardinals (I only learned the very basics of countable and uncountable). – MattHusz Apr 24 '25 at 16:55
  • 1
    @fleablood - Yeah, you're right - the label "sequence" should rule out "exotic" indexing sets. I was trying to provide a space where the OP's later constructions could make sense, but they are no longer "sequences". – JonathanZ Apr 24 '25 at 16:59
  • Well, it's akin to people asking what is the value of $0.000........5$ with and infinite number of zeros before the five or why doesn't Cantor argument prove the natural numbers are uncountable if the diagonal argument produces an natural number with an infinite number of digits. Why can't a natural number have an infinite number of digits. ... I confess I probably get more impatient with these than I should be basic idea is, these wouldn't mean anything and such infinite values contradict any meaning they can have. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 17:00
  • 1
    @JonathanZ well, you're right too. I'm being a crotchety hamfisted instructor slamming my fist down and yelling "no, that makes no sense, stupid! you saying things that make no sense! how dare you!". While you are saying "well, what are our structures and in what way can they or can they not be expanded". It's valid. But we have to work with what is defined and meaningful. And if we pull away we must examine what that means. – fleablood Apr 24 '25 at 17:04

3 Answers3

1

Szekeres, for now, is using the indicated vector space to parametrize polynomials with real coefficients. Things are likely to clear up if you consider that the sum of two polynomials is another polynomial, multiplying a polynomial by a real number gives another polynomial (with real coefficients). Then his space is just what happens if you don't write the powers of the $x,$ just the coefficients with commas in between.

In this light, the shift operators for these sequences are just: (I) multiply a polynomial by $x,$ which increases the degree and forces a zero constant term; (II) in the other direction, cancel the constant term (if nonzero) and divide the resulting polynomial by $x$

enter image description here

Will Jagy
  • 146,052
0

a non-zero element, followed by infinite 0 elements, followed by some finite number of non-zero elements, followed by infinite 0 elements

I prefer "entry" over "element" when order matters, to help me distinguish between sets or similar (which have "elements" and order doesn't matter) and sequences or similar (which have "entries" and order matters).

Since this is a sequence, the indices of these entries would be natural numbers (by definition of "sequence"). Let's say $a_0\ne0$ and then $a_1,\ldots$ are "infinite[ly many] 0 [entries]" but that after all of those is $a_N\ne0$ (and then there are infinitely many 0 entries after that, but that's not really relevant).

This implies that there is a natural number $N$ which is bigger than infinitely many other natural numbers. But since $N$ is a natural number greater than $0$, you could write it with some finite number digits; call that number $D$. That means the largest that $N$ could be is ${10}^D-1$. And so the most natural numbers there could be below $N$ is ${10}^D-2$. Since that's a finite number, this contradicts the idea that $N$ "is bigger than infinitely many other natural numbers".

Therefore, the idea that there are infinitely many entries of the sequence before the entry $a_N$ is impossible.

(As pointed out in the comments, it's possible to have ordered families of numbers that are not sequences which have this sort of property. But to do that would require an ordered index set other than the natural numbers, so it wouldn't count as a "sequence".)

Mark S.
  • 25,893
-1

Indexing has nothing to do with this. A sequence, by definition, is a function on the natural numbers. The sequence element $a_i$ means $f(i)$ for some function $f$ that defines the sequence. Since the set $$S=\{i\in\mathbb N: a_i=f(i)\ne 0\}$$ is a finite subset of natural numbers, it has a maximum element $n$. Therefore, if $i\gt 0$, $f(i)=a_i\not\in S$ and so $a_i=0$.

John Douma
  • 12,640
  • 2
  • 26
  • 27
  • 1
    Not sure why the downvote; this is exactly right. Every entry in a sequence, by definition, has a finite index. If only finitely many entries are nonzero, then eventually they run out. (I.e., for each such sequence, there’s an index after which all entries are zero.) – mjqxxxx Apr 24 '25 at 17:49
  • 1
    You can talk about mappings from other ordered sets besides $\mathbb{N}$, of course; but those aren’t sequences. – mjqxxxx Apr 24 '25 at 17:51