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I am a logician with a degree in philosophy, not in mathematics. I came up with this problem while studying Brouwer's intuitionism and his weak counterexamples to the Law of Excluded Middle. This being said, I am interested in knowing whether this has a solution in everyday standard mathematics, not in the intuitionistic one.

Let $X$ be a sequence of digits. I call initial segment of $X$ a sequence $Y$ such that $X = YZ$ for some other (possibly empty) sequence $Z$. I call the shortest initial segment of $X$ that validates a property $\varphi$ a sequence $Y$ such that:

  1. $Y$ is an initial segment of $X$
  2. $Y$ validates the property $\varphi$
  3. If $Z$ is an initial segment of $Y$ that validates the property $\varphi$, then $Z=Y$

Given these definitions, we may say that the decimal expansion of a real number $r$ has always the form $AAB$: if $A$ is empty, we say that the decimal expansion of $r$ "has no repeating initial segment"; if $A$ is non-empty, the decimal expansion of $r$ "has a repeating initial segment".

Now call $I(r)$ the shortest repeating initial segment of the decimal expansion of $r$: that is, the shortest $A$ for which $r = n.AAB$ holds.

The function $f$ from real numbers to positive integers takes the number of elements in $I(r)$ plus 1.

In other words, $f(r)$ is the place in the sequence where the first repetition of the whole initial segment of the sequence occurs. If there is no such repetition, then $f(r)=1$, which is equivalent to say that the sequence starts with two empty sequences, and then the rest of the numbers.

So, for example, $f(1) = 2$, because the shortest initial segment of the decimal expansion of $1$ ($1.0000...$) repeats for the first time in position $2$: $1.[0][0]0000...$ (I am well aware that $1$ is also equal to $0.99999...$ But in this case also $f(1)=2$. If there are other numbers with more than one possible decimal expansion, I am pretty confident that there is a boring way of chosing a canonical one so that the function is well defined.)

For a more illustrative example, consider the number $0.\overline{1367}$. In this case $f(0.\overline{1367})=5$, because at position $5$ the initial segment of four digits repeats for the first time. Also, this is the shortest initial segment to repeat. (There are others, for instance: $\langle 13671367 \rangle$, etc.) And so on.

There are irrational numbers in which this function gives a definite answer. For instance, the number $0.10100100010000\dots$ has $f(0.10100100010000\dots)=3$: $0.[10][10]0100010000\dots$

Now, for my question, consider $f(\pi)$. Can we prove that $f(\pi)>1$ is contradictory? In principle, I would say no: $\pi$ being irrational means that an initial segment of some length will not repeat "endlessly", but it may well happen that it only repeats once (or twice, or... a finite number of times). As indeed is the case with $0.10100100010000\dots$ and many other irrational numbers. And if $f(\pi)>1$ is not contradictory, is there a way to know the value of $f(\pi)$?

The interesting fact, at least for me, is that, intuitively, I would say the the larger the initial segment is, the less "likely" it becomes that it will ever repeat. So, the less likely it becomes that $f(\pi)$ will come up to be greater than 1. Is there a rigorous mathematical fact that reflects this idea, or not?

(I am assuming that $f(\pi)$ is not knowable "as of today", given the available lists of initial decimals of $\pi$. If this is not the case, the question may be restated in full generality: is there a way to find the value of $f(r)$ for an arbitrary irrational number $r$, or to prove that $f(r)>1$ is contradictory?)

I am thankful for any input you may give me about this problem. (Also, thanks for the comments, that helped me improve the question overall.)

  • As far as I can see $f(\pi) = 102$ as the digits $14$ (which are the first two digits of the decimal expansion of $\pi$) occurs then. And as your example with $0.1010010001000\cdots$ show there doesn't seem to be any requirement on either the length of the segment to repeat or what happens past the two occurences (in $\pi$ the first occurence is followed by $15$ and the second by $80$). – Henrik supports the community Jan 23 '25 at 21:49
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    @Henriksupportsthecommunity This seems to be about consecutive repetitions of a prefix. – Naïm Camille Favier Jan 23 '25 at 21:52
  • @NaïmFavier: The word consecutive is not part of the definition of $f$. But I don't understand what you mean by "consecutive", as the OP knows an initial segment can't be repeated endlessly in any irrational number. But being normal in base 10 (which it is just conjectured that $\pi$ is) would mean that $14$ occurs infinitely often. – Henrik supports the community Jan 23 '25 at 21:59
  • I don't understand the definition. What is the "initial segment" of a decimal? Even for a rational, this isn't clear. Suppose the number is $\frac {11}{90}=.1222222\cdots$, what's the initial segment of that? For an irrational, I have no guess what you mean. – lulu Jan 23 '25 at 22:00
  • As I say, I do not believe your function is well defined. If you can add more detail to clarify, please do. – lulu Jan 23 '25 at 22:15
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    I thought the examples made it pretty clear that this is about numbers whose decimal expansion is of the form $AAB$, where $A$ is a finite nonempty sequence of digits and $B$ an infinite one. – Naïm Camille Favier Jan 23 '25 at 22:16
  • Many rational numbers are of the form $ABBC$ where $A$ is some arbitrary prefix and if $A \neq B$ then $f(n)=1$. Given some irrational $q$ with repeated digit starting at the $n$-th position then $f(10^nq) \geq 2$. So the values of the function seem unrelated to rationality or irrationality. – CyclotomicField Jan 23 '25 at 22:43
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    If the entire question is "in base $10$, does $\pi$ ever repeat a block starting at, I guess ,the first digit after the decimal (or maybe we count the $3$, who knows?) ?" then the answer is certainly that nobody knows. There are no techniques available for showing that this does not happen...raw searching could turn up an instance of it, but doesn't seem to in this case. – lulu Jan 23 '25 at 23:18
  • To formalize your probabilistic intuition, consider a string $s$ of random digits (instead of the deterministic string $\pi$). The probability that $s$ begins with a repeated string of length $n$ is $10^{-n}$. – Karl Jan 23 '25 at 23:47
  • Another note: you're asking for a technique (i.e. an algorithm) that works "for an arbitrary irrational number $r$", but how does one write down (i.e. encode as input) an arbitrary real number? – Karl Jan 24 '25 at 00:02
  • I realised this morning (I've been sleeping for most of the time since my last comments), that maybe the OP meant that the initial segment should continue until the repetition - and that seems to be the point of his comment. In that case I can't see that $f(\pi)$ would not be $1$, but (as you might have guessed): I have no proof. – Henrik supports the community Jan 24 '25 at 07:26
  • $f(\pi)=1$. Unfortunately, I don't have a proof (and I don't think anyone else does either), so this is just my opinion. My opinion is supported by the probabilities in one of @Karl's comments, plus my belief that the base-10 digits of $\pi$ look random, plus the observation that no initial segment of length $\le14$ repeats immediately. (I know that $14$ can be greatly improved by inspection of known digits of $\pi$, but I'm too lazy to do the inspecting; I just used the digits that I had memorized as a child.) – Andreas Blass Jan 27 '25 at 20:53

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It is almost certainly hopeless to prove anything one way or the other about $f(\pi)$ or about $f(\alpha)$ for any "typical" irrational number $\alpha$ such as $\sqrt{2}, e$, anything that hasn't been explicitly defined to start with a repeated segment. Heuristically if we don't have $f(x) = 2$ or $3$ it's quite unlikely to be anything bigger, and we can make this precise.

The interesting fact, at least for me, is that, intuitively, I would say the the larger the initial segment is, the less "likely" it becomes that it will ever repeat. So, the less likely it becomes that $f(\pi)$ will come up to be greater than 1. Is there a rigorous mathematical fact that reflects this idea, or not?

Yes, we can consider the probability that a random real number $x \in [0, 1]$ satisfies $f(x) = n$. Choosing such a random real number is equivalent to choosing its digits independently and uniformly from $\{ 0, \dots 9 \}$ so this is an easy process to reason about, and in particular the probability $\mathbb{P}(f(x) = n + 1)$ is approximately

$$\mathbb{P}(f(x) = n + 1) \approx \frac{1}{10^n}$$

(this isn't exact because the condition that the first repetition has length $n$ rules out some patterns but the error term doesn't really matter for our purposes), because by independence, if we condition on the first $n$ digits the distribution over the next $n$ digits is unchanged, so we just compute the probability that the second batch of $n$ digits matches the first batch. So the probability of $n = 1$ is not so bad but if we don't have repetitions for $n = 1, 2, 3$ they get exponentially less likely from there. The closest things I know to such a repetition among "famous" constants are the near-misses

$$\sqrt{2} = \color{red}{1.4}\color{blue}{14}2135 \dots $$ $$e = 2.7\color{red}{1828}\color{blue}{1828}459 \dots $$

which almost repeat segments of length $2$ and $4$ (honestly, this one is quite strange and surprising) respectively but not starting from the first decimal.

$\pi$ itself has been computed to $200$ trillion digits, and I bet no one has looked but I would be shocked if those digits contained a repetition of the desired form (in any case I once memorized the first $100$ digits of $\pi$ so I can confirm there are no repetitions of length $\le 98$). Given that, any even longer repetitions are ludicrously unlikely.

Qiaochu Yuan
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  • Presumably, one can get an upper bound for the measure of real $r$, $0<r<1$, with $f(r)>1$. – Gerry Myerson Jan 24 '25 at 00:24
  • I guess we have $f(\sqrt2/10)=3$, and $f(10e)=5$. Also, $f(10^{23}\pi)=2$. – Gerry Myerson Jan 24 '25 at 00:27
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    Yes, the probability of having any nonempty repeated prefix is bounded above by the expected number of nonempty repeated prefixes, which is $\frac1{10}+\frac1{100}+\dots=\frac19.$ – Karl Jan 24 '25 at 00:30