Hercules vs. Hydra: Recall the story where every time Hercules cuts of a head, two more heads grow instead. Now suppose the following: The hydra starts off with one head, but every time Hercules cuts off a head, $\aleph_0$ grow anew. Show that Hercules will be able to defeat the Hydra before $\omega_1$ steps. That is, we will reach a step $\lambda<\omega_1$ where the Hydra doesn't have any heads.
Two players play in the following game: In each turn $n \in \mathbb{N}$, the player whose turn it is chooses a set $A_n$ that is contained in the previous set,i.e $A_n \subseteq A_{n-1}$ such that $A_n$ are stationary sets $A_n \subseteq \omega_1$. Player 1 starts. After $\aleph_0$ such turns, Player 2 wins if the intersection $\cap_nA_n$ contains at most 1 ordinal (we can say Player 1 wins otherwise). Show that Player 2 has a winning strategy, that is a way to choose the $2n+1$ set to ensure he wins.
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1You seem to know the answers already. Where'd you get these problems from? – Samuel Jun 07 '13 at 11:15
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2It would be quite helpful if instead of just spitting out homework problems, you'd also add what you'd tried to do in order to solve them. – Asaf Karagila Jun 07 '13 at 11:15
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I don't know the answers. Sorry about writing down problems here, I'm juggling quite a few things these days. Regarding question two I'm still struggling to grasp the idea of a stationary set. I played a few games alternating player 1 and player 2, but my examples are really simplistic and to find an optimal strategy for player 2 requires also knowing what player 1 can do to make it hard for player 2, if you know what I mean. Regarding question 1, it seems really unintuitive. Obviously after each finite step, we have more heads than in the previous step. But how is that not true generally? – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 11:22
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I don't expect to be given the answers directly. A direction in any of the problems would be nice. Like in the first question, how can I convert the problem to one that deals with properties of ordinals/cardinals instead of the way in which it is phrased, if that makes sense. – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 11:38
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Doesn't Hercules defeat the Hydra at the first step? – gukoff Jun 07 '13 at 12:42
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You have to have no heads on the beginning of some step. The $\aleph_0$ heads are added between the first and second. – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 12:49
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1@ctlaltdefeat: A hint for the first question: What happens at limit stages? For example how many heads has the hydra produced in the first $\omega$ cuts of Hercules? – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 12:53
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$\aleph_0$ times $\omega$, minus the $\omega$ that we killed, isn't it? – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 13:13
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1Well, $\omega\times\omega$ is still countable and Hercules killed countable many heads as well. If Hercules is allowed to cut the heads in any order that he prefers, can you think of a way to make him cut all these heads in the first $\omega$ kills? If on the other hand we assume that the heads get well ordered and Hercules has to cut them in order (as you describe in your comment) what can you say about the function that sends each kill to the order of the heads that has been produced? – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 13:27
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Ah, for some reason I thought that adding $\aleph_0$ could mean adding any countable ordinal, but it means adding exactly $w$? That helps. I still don't know which order is beneficial. After the first step we are left with $w$ heads, so we cut the first since it doesn't matter. Then $w$ more are added (after the first $w$? before? does it matter?). Now I'm guessing the choice we have to make, is whether to continue a second head from the first $w$ or the first head from the second $w$. But I don't how either of these options leads us anywhere. – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 13:37
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1@ctlaltdefeat: If there is no implicit order that all these happen and Hercules can cut off any head he wants, then at the first $\omega$ kills he can kill the Hydra. Are you aware of Cantor's pairing function? – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 13:56
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I see what we would want, but not formally how this would work. At a stage n, we do not have all of $w \times w$ to choose from (because these heads were not yet generated), so we can't use exactly the pairing function, can we? – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 14:10
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1@ctlaltdefeat: Notice though that the pairing function, $d$, is such that for any $m\in\omega$, $d(m,k)> k$ (for $k>0$). – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 14:14
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So I think I understand now. We decide to kill on the $n$-th step $d^{-1}(n)=(m,k)$, that is the $m$-th member of the $k$-th $\omega$ copy that was generated (we know we can do that from the inequality you mentioned). At the end, we know due to the one-to-oneness and ontoness of the pairing function that we covered all of $\omega \times \omega$, which is exactly how many heads were formed after $\omega$ steps. Correct? – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 14:29
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@ctlaltdefeat: Yes this is correct. As an aside if we assume that the heads are added in order and Hercules had to kill the first head only, he would still manage to finish before $\omega_1$ steps. This is because the function $f(\alpha+1)=f(\alpha)+\omega$ (and $f(\gamma)=\bigcup_{\xi<\gamma}f(\xi)$ for limit $\gamma$) is continuous and increasing, hence it has fixed points. But $f(\alpha)$ describes how many heads have been produced at the $\alpha$ cut. At the first fixed point Hercules would have killed all heads. – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 14:35
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I've seen the first question stated differently, with a train making $\omega_1$ stops, one person getting out, and $\omega$ getting in each time we reach a stop and the train is non-empty. – Andrés E. Caicedo Jun 07 '13 at 14:47
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In fact the question as I got it was stated differently, but it didn't make much sense (something about coins) so I made up the hydra because it made me think of it lol – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 14:54
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@Apostolos But the method you described using the pairing function does not depend on the order the heads are added, right? I don't see where we depended on it. – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 14:55
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1@ctlaltdefeat: No it doesn't depend on the order of the heads added. As long as we have an enumeration of the heads nothing else matters. – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 14:58
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Thanks. I guess I will erase the first question now. – ctlaltdefeat Jun 07 '13 at 15:06
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3@ctlaltdefeat: I would advice you not to erase the question. This is not a site where answers are given just to the person that asks the question, but rather to anyone interested. Maybe someone in the future has a similar question. I think a better idea would be to write down a complete answer for the first question as a community wiki answer and submit it, while leaving the first question as part of your original question. Also, all these comments will not make sense to someone who will visit this question in the future. – Apostolos Jun 07 '13 at 15:48
1 Answers
OK, let's see.
For the first question, enumerate the heads as they are added: The original head is head $0$. We can enumerate the heads added in stage $\alpha$ by ordinals in the ordinal interval $(\omega\alpha,\omega(\alpha+1)]$. If we suppose for no $\alpha<\omega_1$ the Hydra has no heads at the beginning of stage $\alpha$ then, for a club $C$ of countable ordinals $\alpha$, the heads enumerated so far at the beginning of stage $\alpha$ are indexed precisely by the ordinals less than $\alpha$.
This allows us to define a regressive function on $C$, that to each $\alpha\in C$ assigns $\beta<\alpha$ iff $\beta$ is the index of the head removed at stage $\alpha$. By Fodor's lemma, the same index is used more than once (in fact, stationarily often). But this is impossible, and we have a contradiction. (This is a nice problem. I forget where it originated.)
The second question reminds me of arguments of Mycielski and Solovay from the early 70s. I give here an argument that applies not just to subsets of $\omega_1$, but also to subsets of any regular $\kappa\le\mathfrak c$, the cardinality of the continuum. I suspect this restriction is a distraction, but I'll use it below.
Accordingly, suppose $\kappa$ is regular, $\kappa\le\mathfrak c$, and we play the game you describe, except that the $A_n$ are stationary in $\kappa$. Since $\kappa\le\mathfrak c$, we may fix an injection of $\kappa$ into the interval $[0,1]$. In what follows, we identify subsets of $\kappa$ with subsets of $[0,1]$ via this injection. Also, to each bounded set $A\subseteq[0,1]$ with infimum $m=m(A)$ and supremum $M=m(A)$, we associate a strictly increasing sequence $m=a_0=a_0(A)<a_1<\dots$ converging to $M$, with $a_1=(m+M)/2$, $a_2=(a_1+M)/2$, etc. (So $a_1$ is the midpoint of the interval $[m,M]$, $a_2$ is the midpoint of $[a_1,M]$, etc.)
Now we describe how player II must respond to the moves of player I. Say that at stage $n$, player I has played $A=A_{2n}$. There must be an interval $[a_k(A),a_{k+1}(A))$ whose intersection with $A$ is (via the injection fixed above) a stationary subset of $\kappa$. The reason is that the stationary set $A\setminus\{M(A)\}$ is the countable union of these sets, and the countable intersection of clubs is club, so one of these sets must be stationary as well.
More precisely, if $i$ is the injection, then $A\setminus\{i^{-1}(M)\}=\bigcup_k i^{-1}([a_k,a_{k+1})\cap i[A])$.
Let $A_{2n+1}$ be this stationary set $i^{-1}([a_k,a_{k+1})\cap i[A_{2n}])$ (where, if you wish, we let $k$ be least so that this is stationary).
The point is this: Call the size of $A_n$ the number $M(A_n)-m(A_n)$. Then the size of $A_{2n+2}$ is at most half the size of $A_{2n}$. Since the sets $i[A_n]$ shrink to size $0$, their intersection is empty or a singleton.
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In the first question, what is the club set $C$? After the sentence "The original head is head 0. we can enumerate the heads added in stage α by ordinals in the ordinal interval (ωα,ω(α+1)]", I don't see how you reached your conclusion about existence of such a C. Also you wrote C is a club of $\alpha$, so you have such a club for each $\alpha$? – ctlaltdefeat Jun 09 '13 at 15:10
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$C$ is a club subset of $\omega_1$, consisting of ordinals $\alpha$ such that ... This is usually abbreviated by saying that $C$ is a club of ordinals $\alpha$ such that ... – Andrés E. Caicedo Jun 09 '13 at 17:22
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As for the existence of $C$: Let $f$ be the function that assigns to $\alpha$ the supremum of the ordinals $\beta$ that have been used enumerating heads prior to stage $\alpha$, so $f(0)=0$, $f(1)=\omega$, etc. The point is that $f(\tau)$ is countable for each countable ordinal $\tau$. For any function $g:\omega_1\to\omega_1$, the set of ordinals $\alpha<\omega_1$ such that $g(\beta)<\alpha$ for all $\beta<\alpha$ is a club set. When $g$ is the function $f$ just described, then the club set is $C$. – Andrés E. Caicedo Jun 09 '13 at 17:24
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