4

enter image description here

A rope 28 feet long is attached to a block on level ground and runs over a pulley 12 feet above the ground. The rope is stretched taut and the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec. How fast will the block be moving when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley?

My solution:

I start with relating the three sides of the triangle, holding one side constant at 12 feet. My aim is to find the rate of movement of the rope, that is, the rate of change of the hypotenuse, h, which determines, and is therefore identical to, the rate of change of the position of the box.

$$h^2 = x^2 + y^2$$

$$h = \sqrt{x^2 + 144},$$

and since the rate of movement of the rope dictates the rate of movement of the box,

$$\frac{dh}{dt} = \frac{x}{\sqrt{x^2 + 144}} \cdot \frac{dx}{dt}$$

Given that $h = 28 - 5 = 23$ feet when the box is 5 feet from the pulley, and that $$ x = \sqrt{h^2 - y^2} = \sqrt{23^2 - 12^2} = \sqrt{385},$$

it follows that

$$\frac{dh}{dt} = \frac{\sqrt{385}}{\sqrt{385 + 144}} \cdot 13 \approx 11.1 \textrm{ ft/s}.$$

The book's answer is $8 \textrm{ ft^2/s}.$

Did I do something wrong? My answer is so close to the book's.

  • You say 'after some manipulation'. Can you show what that manipulation is ? I think there is something wrong there. Also you have $\sqrt {383}$ instead of $\sqrt {385}$. – Kavi Rama Murthy Aug 26 '19 at 06:32
  • For me, the details of the geometry are a bit unclear. Of course the sides form a triangle, but I don't really see why the length 28 ft is important in the beginning. Surely, the length of the hypotenuse ($h$) is longer than 28 ft, but why would it be equal to $h+y$ ? There's nothing that states so in the text. Also, is the size (physical dimensions) of the block non-negligeable? – Matti P. Aug 26 '19 at 06:33
  • Hey, Kavi. I changed it. I didn't find an error. Would you have a look? thanks for your response. – Rafael Vergnaud Aug 26 '19 at 06:39
  • That its 28ft allows you to determine the length of the hypotenuse when the box is 5 feet from the pulley. Since the rope is 28 ft, and when the box has reached the pulley, the entirety of the rope has been pulled and the hypotenuse is 28 ft long. I can draw my picture and attach it to my post. Do you recommend that? Thanks for your response, too, Matti :) – Rafael Vergnaud Aug 26 '19 at 06:40
  • The size of the box isn't significant (at least how I tried to solve the problem). I draw a right triangle where the right angle is on the right side of the triangle. The right side remains constant and is 12 feet long (from floor to pulley), the hypotenuse is the rope (which is being pulled in the direction away from the box), and the last side (the bottom) is the movement of the end of the rope that is being pulled (that is not attached to the box). I hope this makes sense. Sorry if I'm unclear! – Rafael Vergnaud Aug 26 '19 at 06:43
  • If you have $h^2 = x^2+12^2,$ I'd go directly from there to $2h\dfrac{dh}{dt} = 2x\dfrac{dx}{dt}$ and skip the part about square roots. It's simpler that way. – Michael Hardy Dec 08 '21 at 06:56

4 Answers4

2

enter image description here

Given that $x$ and $y$ are functions of time, the following relationship should always hold true: $x^2+12^2=(16+y)^2$. Thus:

$$ 2x\frac{dx}{dt}+0=2(16+y)\frac{dy}{dt}\implies\\ \frac{dy}{dt}=\frac{x}{16+y}\cdot\frac{dx}{dt}. $$

When the block is $5\ \text{ft}$ away from the point directly below the pulley, $y=7\ \text{ft}$. $\frac{dx}{dt}$ is known. It's $13\ \text{ft/sec}$. What is $x$ at the time when the block is $5\ \text{ft}$ away from the point directly below the pulley? It should be the positive solution to this equation: $$ x^2+12^2=(16+7)^2\implies\\ x=\sqrt{385}\ \text{ft}. $$

Therefore: $$ \frac{dy}{dt}=\frac{\sqrt{385}}{16+7}\cdot 13\approx 11.1\ \text{ft/sec}. $$

I don't know, but that's the answer I get. I don't see anything wrong with my logic.

1

$h^2 = x^2 + y^2$

$y = 12$ as identified.

When $x = 5, h = 13$

$h^2 = 5^2 + 12^2 = 13^2$

That the length of the rope is 28' seems to be a red herring, except insofar as it establishes an upper bound for $x.$ We really only care about the length of rope from the pully to the mass. The rope from the pully to the free end is irrelevant.

When we differentiate:

$2h\frac {dh}{dt} = 2x \frac {dx}{dt}$

$\frac {dh}{dt} = 13$

$2(13)(13) = 2(5)\frac{dx}{dt}\\ x = \frac{13^3}{5}$

Doug M
  • 58,694
  • Hey, Doug. Thanks for your response. Why did you get x = 5? Is it not the case that h + y must be equal to 28, since h + y is the length of the rope? The number 5 is associated with the side that describes the movement of the box. In my problem, x is the side that describes the movement of the individual who is pulling the rope away from the box. – Rafael Vergnaud Aug 26 '19 at 07:08
  • Should not dh/dt = 8, as the book says it should? (assuming dh/dt is how fast the block is moving) – Rafael Vergnaud Aug 26 '19 at 07:08
  • Why does x = 5? because we want to know how fast the block is moving when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley. Why does $\frac {dh}{dt} = 13$ because that is the speed the free end is moving. – Doug M Aug 26 '19 at 09:46
1

''CORRECT'' ANSWER

Problem statement: "A rope 28 feet long is attached to a block on level ground and runs over a pulley 12 feet above the ground. The rope is stretched taut and the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec. How fast will the block be moving when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley?"

[enter image description here

This problem statement can reasonably be interpreted in different ways, such as that the block is being dragged along the ground toward the point directly below the pulley, or that the block is suspended below the pulley. The latter is not how I would normally have interpreted it, but it is the one which leads to the "right" answer so that is the one used here.

Given, speed at which "the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley". Note that this is not the speed at which the length of rope is increasing on the drawn side of the pulley, but rather the horizontal speed of that which is pulling it. There are other (probably better) ways of interpreting what is meant by the wording in the problem statememt, but this is the one that leads to a solution that matches that given in the book, so is probably what the author intended: $$\frac{dx}{dt}=13 ft./sec.$$

Given, "a pulley 12 feet above the ground" and "block ... when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley". Note that the problem statement does NOT say that the block is 5 feet away from the pulley itself but rather that it is 5 feet away "from the point directly below the pulley". The wording is exact but easy to misinterpret, and getting it wrong leads to a wrong answer. If we call the distance from the block to the pulley y then: $$y=12-5=7$$

Given, a "rope 28 feet long" that "is attached to a block on level ground and runs over a pulley 12 feet above the ground". In the drawing the rope forming the hypotenuse is called $h$ but it is related by size to $y$ so: $$h=28-y=21$$

Solve for x (the horizontal distance "from the point directly below the pulley" to where the rope is being pulled from at the time when the block "is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley"): $$h^2=x^2+12^2$$ $$(28-y)^2=x^2+12^2$$ $$x^2=(28-y)^2-12^2$$ $$x^2=(28-7)^2-12^2$$ $$x^2=21^2-12^2=441-144=297$$ $$x=\sqrt 297$$

Solve for $\frac{dh}{dt}$:

$$h^2=x^2+12^2$$ $$x^2=h^2-12^2$$ $$x=\sqrt (h^2-12^2)$$ $$d(x)=d(\sqrt (h^2-12^2))$$ $$dx=\frac {d(h^2-12^2)}{2 \sqrt (h^2-12^2)}=\frac {2h\;dh}{2 \sqrt (h^2-12^2)}=\frac {h}{\sqrt (h^2-12^2)} dh$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac {h}{\sqrt (h^2-12^2)} \frac {dh}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{\sqrt (h^2-12^2)}{h}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=13 \cdot \frac{\sqrt (21^2-12^2)}{21}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=13 \cdot \frac{\sqrt 297}{21}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=10.668 ft./sec.$$

Solve for $\frac{dy}{dt}$:

$$y=28-h$$ $$d(y)=d(28-h)$$ $$dy=-dh$$ $$\frac{dy}{dt}=-\frac{dh}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dy}{dt}=-10.668 ft./sec.$$

The negative value for $\frac{dy}{dt}$ means that y is decreasing therefore the block attached to it is moving up at the rate of 10.668 ft./sec. This solution is close to the value "10.6 ft./sec." given as the answer for this problem in the 3rd edition of the book (Calculus for the Practical Man, copyright 1962 by D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc.) of which I'm fortunate to have in actual physical form. Unfortunately the answer given for the same problem in the only online versions of this book I've been able to find (1st. and 2nd. editions) was "8 ft./sec.", but again that answer was updated in the later edition.

So finally to answer the original question posted on this subject, which was "Did I do something wrong?". Yes, there was one small error, shown in the statement "Given that h=28-5=23 feet when the box is 5 feet from the pulley". The problem statement said "How fast will the block be moving when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley?". Not 5 feet from the pulley, but 5 feet from the point directly below the pulley, so actually 7 feet from the pulley.

Also even if you had gotten it right you would have been "wrong" :) according to the previous editions of the book. You'd have been even more wrong, for real, if you'd gotten the "right" answer, because the only way to get $\frac{dy}{dt}=8$ given $\frac{dx}{dt}=13$ using an interpretation of the problem similar to that illustrated by the diagram you provided is by dropping the elevation at which the end of the rope is pulled down such that it is more than 4 feet below the "level ground", as the following ("right" but wrong) answer shows:

$$h^2=x^2+16.5^2$$ $$x^2=h^2-16.5^2$$ $$x=\sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)$$ $$d(x)=d(\sqrt (h^2-16.5^2))$$ $$dx=\frac {d(h^2-16.4^2)}{2 \sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)}=\frac {2h\;dh}{2 \sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)}=\frac {h}{\sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)} dh$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac {h}{\sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)} \frac {dh}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=\frac{dx}{dt}\frac{\sqrt (h^2-16.5^2)}{h}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=13 \cdot \frac{\sqrt (21^2-16.5^2)}{21}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=13 \cdot \frac{\sqrt 168.75}{21}$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=8 ft./sec.$$

It's wrong not only because the later edition of the book says so but because obviously to replace 12 with 16.5 in the equation we have to drop the base of the triangle by drilling a hole below "the point directly below the pulley" so that the rope is pulled sideways by something 4.5 feet underground (a very fast mole perhaps).

-1

OTHER ANSWERS

To me the problem statement appeared to be simple and unambiguous, but what I first took from it did not lead me to the "right" answer.

For example the problem statement mentions "a block on level ground", but the solution that gives the "right" answer requires that it be suspended above ground.

Also the problem statements mentions that the end of the rope "is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec.". I thought that this meant that the rope is drawn at an angle that is at least approximately perpendicular to that of the rope hanging straight down from the pulley, and also that the length of the rope on the drawn side of the pulley was increasing in length at the rate given. Wrong. Or at least this meaning is not compatible with the "correct" solution.

All of which is to say that there are different reasonable interpretations of what is meant by the problem statement, and that which leads to the "right" answer is not necessarily the "best". I've already posted a solution that provides the "right" answer but it seemed wrong to not also mention other solutions I found that provided answers which were just as good, or better, than that given by the book. Hence this post.

Here again is the problem statement. "A rope 28 feet long is attached to a block on level ground and runs over a pulley 12 feet above the ground. The rope is stretched taut and the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec. How fast will the block be moving when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley?"

HANGING BLOCK, CLOCKED PULLER enter image description here

This is the solution which gives the "right" answer matching that found in the 3rd edition of the book (there was a different answer for the same problem in previous editions). I've already posted it at link below.

[''Correct'' Answer][https://math.stackexchange.com/a/4342106/1000346].

HANGING BLOCK, CLOCKED PULL

enter image description here This solution is based on an interpretation of the problem statement which among other things has as given that block mentioned is no longer on level ground but is instead suspended with the point of attachment to the block being 5 feet above the point directly beneath the pulley, that the only pulley used is that which is mentioned, that speed of movement of the block (vertically) while suspended by the rope is what is to be found, and that the speed of pull on the rope or the rate at which it increases in length is given (rather than for example the speed of walking of the person pulling the rope).

Solving for rate of h

The rope is 28 feet long. It is one continuously connected rope but part of it is on one side of the pulley (attached to the block) and part of it is on the other side (being pulled). We'll label the rope on the block side of the pulley as $h$ and the part on the pulled side as $(28-h)$. The problem states that, "the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec", so it is given that $\frac{d(28-h)}{dt}=13$.

Because the rope is continuous it seems obvious that as the size of one side of the rope increases the size of the other side of the rope will decrease proportionally, so it is no surprise that: $$\frac{d(28-h)}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{d(28)-d(h)}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{0-dh}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{-dh}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=-13$$

Solving for speed of block "when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley": The block is suspended from the rope which runs over the pulley. Unless it is still swinging back and forth from being lifted up from the level ground it's only choice of movement is vertical, at the same rate. I'd call it movement along y because it is vertical, but again it's moving entirely with the movement of the rope which in this case forms not the hypotenuse but hangs directly from the pulley, so it's speed is also $\frac{dh}{dt}=-13$.

GROUNDED BLOCK, CLOCKED PULLER enter image description here This solution is based on an interpretation of the problem statement which among other things has as given that block mentioned is on level ground, that the only pulley used is that which is mentioned, that speed of movement of the block while still on level ground is what is to be found, and that the speed of pulling of the rope actually means the speed of walking of the person pulling the rope as measured horizontally. For this interpretation it does matter at what angle the rope is pulled and that it is 28 feet long. It is very similar to many two-cart problems I've found and the solution is the same as for those.

Solving for h

$$h^2=(x^2+12^2)=(5^2+12^2)=25+144=169$$ $$h=\sqrt 169=13$$

Solving for (28-h) and for y

$$(28-h)=(28-13)=15$$ $$15^2=(y^2+12^2)=(y^2+144)$$ $$y^2=(15^2-144)=225-144=81$$ $$y=\sqrt 81=9$$

Solving for rate of h

$$(28-h)^2=y^2+144$$ $$d[(28-h)^2]=d(y^2+144)$$ $$2(28-h)d(28-h)=2y\;dy$$ $$(28-h)(-dh)=y\;dy$$ $$(28-h)\frac{-dh}{dt}=y\;\frac{dy}{dt}$$ $$-15\;\frac{-dh}{dt}=9 \cdot 13$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=\frac{9 \cdot 13}{-15}=-\frac{39}{5}$$

Solving for rate of x

$$h^2=(x^2+12^2)=h^2=(x^2+144)$$ $$d[h*2)=d(x*2+144)$$ $$2h\;dh=2x\;dx$$ $$h\:\frac{dh}{dt}=x \frac{dx}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{h \cdot \frac{dh}{dt}}{x}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{13 \cdot -\frac{39}{5}}{5}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=13 \cdot -\frac{39}{5} \cdot \frac{1}{5}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{13(-39)}{25}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=-\frac{507}{24}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=-20.28 ft/sec$$

GROUNDED BLOCK, CLOCKED PULL

enter image description here

This solution is based on an interpretation of the problem statement which among other things has as given that block mentioned is on level ground, that the only pulley used is that which is mentioned, that speed of movement of the block while still on level ground is what is to be found, and that the speed of pulling of the rope is given (rather than for example the speed of walking of the person pulling the rope). For this interpretation it does not really matter at what exact angle the rope is pulled or even that it is 28 feet long.

Solving for h

$$h^2=(x^2+12^2)=(5^2+12^2)=25+144=169$$ $$h=\sqrt 169=13$$

Solving for rate of h

The rope is 28 feet long. It is one continuously connected rope but part of it is on one side of the pulley (attached to the block) and part of it is on the other side (being pulled). We'll label the rope on the block side of the pulley as $h$ and the part on the pulled side as $(28-h)$. The problem states that, "the free end is drawn directly away from the block and pulley at the rate of 13 ft. per sec", so it is given that $\frac{d(28-h)}{dt}=13$.

Because the rope is continuous it seems obvious that as the size of one side of the rope increases the size of the other side of the rope will decrease proportionally, so it is no surprise that: $$\frac{d(28-h)}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{d(28)-d(h)}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{0-dh}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{-dh}{dt}=13$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=-13$$

Solving for rate of x

Solving for horizontal speed of block "when it is 5 feet away from the point directly below the pulley": $$h^2=x^2+12^2$$ $$x^2=h^2-12^2$$ $$d(x^2)=d(h^2-12^2)$$ $$2x \; dx=2h \; dh-0$$ $$x \; dx=h \; dh$$ $$x \; \frac{dx}{dt}=h \; \frac{dh}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=h \; \frac{dh}{dt}\;\frac{1}{x}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=13 \; (-13) \; \frac{1}{5}=-\frac{169}{5}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=-33.8 \;(ft/sec)$$

Here is another try with a slightly different approach differentiating starting with $h$ rather than $h^2$:

$$\frac{hr}{dt}=-13 ft./sec$$ $$h^2=x^2+12^2=x^2+144$$ $$h=\sqrt(x^2+144)$$ $$dh=d[(x^2+144)^\frac{1}{2}]=\frac{d(x^2+144)}{2\sqrt(x^2+144)}$$ $$dh=\frac{2x\;dx+0}{2\sqrt(x^2+144)}=\frac{2x}{2\sqrt(x^2+144)}\;dx$$ $$dh=\frac{x}{\sqrt(x^2+144)}\;dx$$ $$\frac{dh}{dt}=\frac{x}{\sqrt(x^2+144)}\frac{dx}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{\sqrt(x^2+144)}{x}\frac{dr}{dt}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{\sqrt(5^2+144)}{5}(-13)=\frac{\sqrt(25+144)}{5}(-13)$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=\frac{\sqrt 169}{5}\;(-13)=\frac{13}{5}(-13)=-\frac{169}{5}$$ $$\frac{dx}{dt}=-33.8 ft./sec.$$

reality check

The answer above was surprising and led me to wonder if all my fancy calculations were blinding me to some obvious truth, so here's a low tech step-by-tiny-step example to verify this makes sense. Starting with the same given sizes what happens if we pull the 28 foot long rope a distance of only one sixteenth of an inch instead of 13 feet?

First the pulled end of the rope moves a distance of one sixteenth of an inch in the direction in which it is pulled (here "directly away from the block and pulley"). As the end of the rope where pulled moves one sixteenth of an inch so also does the part of the rope at the pulley, so that the part of the rope labeled $(28-h)$ becomes larger by one sixteenth of an inch, and the part of the rope labeled $h$ becomes smaller by one sixteenth of an inch.

At time t=0 seconds there are $(13 \times 12 \times 16=2496)$ sixteenth's of an inch in $h$,$(12 \times 12 \times 16=2304)$ sixteenth's of an inch from pulley to "the point directly below the pulley", and $(5 \times 12 \times 16=960)$ sixteenth's of an inch from the bottom of $h$ where it attaches to the block to "the point directly below the pulley").

At time t=1 second there are $(2496-1=2495)$ sixteenth's of an inch in $h$, $(12 \times 12 \times 16=2304)$ sixteenth's of an inch from pulley to "the point directly below the pulley", and $957.397$ sixteenth's of an inch from the bottom of $h$ where it attaches to the block to "the point directly below the pulley").

Summarizing

At t=0: $$ x=960 $$

At t=1: $$ h^2=x^2+2304^2$$ $$ 2495^2=x^2+2304^2$$ $$ x^2=2495^2-2304^2$$ $$ x=\sqrt (2495^2-2304^2)=957.397$$

Distance per second (in sixteenths of an inch): $$ 960-957.397=2.603$$

At t=13: $$ 13*2.603 = 33.839$$

The difference of one sixteenth of an inch in $h$ has resulted in a difference of 2.603 sixteenths of an inch in $x$. Therefore when $h$ is close to 13 feet long the rate at which $x$ contracts relative to $h$ is 2.603. If the rate at which $h$ is reduced is 13 feet/second then $x$ is reduced at the rate of $(13 \times 2.603=33.839)$ feet/second. The results from this numeric example is very close to that found using differentials above.

On a side note as to how this rate can be so surprisingly large notice that the 13 foot length of rope from the pulley to the block is very close to the end or terminal condition for pulling the block along the ground. At the rate of 13 feet/second it will be reduced in length to 12 foot and therefore stop pulling the block horizontally after only 1/13th of a second.